“You don’t care about privacy? Why not give me your bank login, then”

More seriously, You don’t have to convince people of anything. Sooner than later some huge leak will happen or anythign more intimate that will still impact them, say, like the story of this dad sending a pic of some intimate part of their sick kid’s to their doctor and being flagged by Google AI and being arrested for sharing child porn. And then they will realize why it mattered to protect our privacy.

The thing is, people by and large don’t want to be convinced. They want their convenience and ease of use, they don’t want to learn a whole new paradigm, least of all one that requires constant vigilance and understanding of the risks. I can’t blame them, they have a lot on their mind, and their existing skill set might not be relevant to privacy issues. People in general resist change and effort. I do. You do too.

It’s less about you, and more about them. People will only start taking steps when it all clicks for them. What the catalyst will be is impossible to tell, since people are wired differently. All we can do is talk about privacy and advocate for it with people who are willing to have the discussions. Don’t expect to go in and change people’s minds. It’s horribly difficult and you will be disappointed. Instead, think of it as giving people perspectives and starting points for their own journeys. If something happens and they are finally willing to start doing the work, they will at least have some context and words, labels to use. They may even come to you for more. They may not.

You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink.

I gave up on convincing people about privacy and all that. They don’t care and say the old crap “I have nothing to hide” but seem utterly perplexed when you tell them Facebook scandals (and then still keep using it).

People have chosen easy of use and laziness over privacy.

Do people need to care?

Do what you need to to secure your privacy, and let people know how much of a travesty it is that their privacy and rights are being stripped away, but at the end of the day they’re their own people and so if they choose not to care that’s their decision, and it’s not up to you to choose how they’re allowed to think or live their lives, even if it appears obviously wrong and short-sighted to you or I

I am privacy conscious and care about privacy even though I don’t care too much about my own personal privacy just for privacy’s sake.

Privacy advocacy runs deeper than just protecting your own data. Convincing someone to care about “their privacy” is more straightforward when they face a real threat. For example, a journalist in Mexico writing about a politician linked to organized crime has every reason to avoid being easily tracked. That person is not going to post their location on Facebook.

But most people aren’t under direct threat. If you read my texts, you’ll find casual conversations with family and dinner plans. I’m not afraid of someone showing up at my door, so I’m fine sharing my address to get a package delivered. Getting ads is a minor annoyance.

Still, I care about privacy. Not necessarily mine, but privacy as a principle. I care about what surveillance capitalism does to society. Even if my personal threat model is easy, I want tools and systems to exist for people with harder ones. Privacy is part of the kind of world I think we should live in, and its erosion usually points to larger structural problems.

So back to the question. It’s easier to convince someone to care about privacy if they feel directly threatened. But if they don’t, you need something else to make them give up convenience in the name of privacy. That something is ideology. You’re asking how to shift someone’s ideological framework. That’s hard, and not something you can do for them. You can recommend good material, share your reasoning, explain what led you to care. But they have to engage with the ideas themselves. Like with exercise, you can’t build someone’s muscles for them. You can’t implant the ideology, but you can create the conditions for it to take root.

I typically point to the real world and that seems to work:

• Your garden has a fence
• Your windows have curtains so that you close when you switch on the lights inside
• Your bathroom window uses frosted glass so that you cannot be seen showering from outside
• You sometimes whisper so that not everyone can hear what you say

None of them are super safe, but you still follow these precautions. All we ask is to be as careful on the internet.

One thing I love about Germany is that people have this understanding where privacy is fundamental and not something to argue about. Because they know being able to easily identify people leads to disaster. It’s just about a political swing away.

But anything I can specifically say that works best in planting a seed in people’s mind?

‘It fails to include a libre software license text file. We do not control it, anti-libre software. Don’t fall for their scam.’

You need to make them ask you. People are bored of privacy. They will not ask you about privacy. Also, people care less about getting and more about losing. Listen for complains and always link back to software freedom.

Never say privacy. Never say anything technical, a derailment strategy used against us. Never say ‘open source’. This misses the point of libre software. Say simple words, scam and abuse.

Here’s more: lemmy.world/post/21620691

Start by your own privacy.

I boarded that train about twenty years ago. I tried the evangelizing route. I failed miserably. Which led me to care for myself first and foremost.

I started by abandoning Windows. Not of my own volition; I bought a computer that had no OS. Enter Linux. None of my family, friends or acquaintances understood. It was all about the convinience. When my machines started outperforming while outliving theirs, it caused a ripple.

Then came the usual slew of questions: where can I get a free anti-virus, office, media reader, whatever? That was when I introduced FOSS. After the initial resistance, things just settled into place. LibreOffice works. VLC works. PeaZip works. Thunderbird works. Etc.

When smartphones became a thing, I started moving as fast as I could towards FOSS. This made things a bit more laughable as “free” android applications are ubiquous. But they fill your phone with junk and ads. While my apps provided me ease of use, safety, security and privacy.

But when push came to shove, I just refused to join. First I left FBMessenger. I never boarded Whatsapp. I never entered Instagram or any major social networks. I discovered Signal and remained there.

It’s my way or no way.

Stalk their social media accounts to prove a point.

If you’re in the US, you could point to the news. Even garden variety libs should be a little nervous about the increasing police state

We share the goal of making the world more private. I’m not trying to be cheeky or mean. I’m genuinely curious. Would you be against reading to learn how to talk more compellingly?

People never want to be convinced of anything that says they should do something differently than how they currently do it. Best you can do is lead by example. Talk about benefits of your way of doing things if they ask, or if it is very relevant to the conversation. Otherwise, don’t broach those topics. To take it a step further, if people start complaining to you about problems, before you offer solutions, ask them if they are just venting, or if they are looking for advice or suggestions. Now that you have your instructions on how to change what you are doing, please follow them to the letter, without deviation ;P

pull up embarasing posts from years ago to prove a point

I think if you just publicly practise decent privacy, people will be more inclined to do the same. e.g. all my friends know I’m not on WhatsApp and don’t use proprietary software in general. They know to talk to me on other platforms, and the fact that I’m like this means that others will likely feel more able to do the same if they are inclined. Nobody ever told me to care about privacy; I have always thought it was creepy if others can see all my personal business. I can’t imagine that that’s such a rare innate mindset to have, so other people who feel the same way should feel more able to put that into practice if they see you doing so. If they really want to broadcast all their personal data to the state and tech companies then they are within their right to, and I don’t see the point in trying to convince them to not do what they want to do.

I just compare it to having a stalker. Imagine being in your bedroom and having someone looking at you from outside the window. Now, would you be ok with it if the person was invisible?

Honestly, I just don’t try to do anything like this at all. I don’t want to be a missionary for privacy rights, and if people decide to upload their entire life to Google’s servers, then I just shrug my shoulders and move on, because I don’t really care what others do lol.

Honestly, there are a lot of people whom I met believe that google can track/store all their information since they believe that they are too insignificant for that data to matter. Hard to change that mindset in the first place.

What i tend to do is just complain about how much resources trackers/spyware take up on my Phone/Computers, which tends to convience people better than just doing a “but mah privacy”. More people are united about a less laggier computer/phone after all lol.

Most people are all like: “derp derp! Nothing to hide nothing to fear duuuuur 🤤”. There’s no reasoning with them. Don’t beat yourself up over it.

Ensure you present your arguments in a way that doesnt make your recipient seem like a bad person because of their belief.

Louis Rossmann made a good video on activism and how to get someone to care about something.

Inviduous link: yewtu.be/watch?v=cir-gJDcC1o

YouTube link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=cir-gJDcC1o

for the presentation part, watch standup. watch them construct the story, the path they guide you through, how it all comes together. notice how they lay it out, every syllable, every stutter, how it’s all in the service of delivery. planting and harvesting the callbacks. inadvertently, you’ll start picking up on techniques and implementing them and you’ll notice people hanging on your every word.

as to the actual part converting them over, determine who you’re talking to. if people are aware of the issue but are apathetic about implementing change, that presents one set of issues. if they’re completely unaware that there’s a problem, you’re better off changing environments.

I have an easy job, in my roles I implement the privacy aspect for tech-illiterate people from a security standpoint and I have a dictatorial position - they have to listen to me. I also don’t have tech debt when I implement their IT strategy, i.e. there’s never an issue with an OS or app they love or are used to. all of that is way, way harder when faced with someone who can’t imagine life without a $1000 easily breakable/losable/stealable slab of glass with the blue bubble and the tiks and toks and whatnot.

edit: there’s this thing theguardian.com/…/what-i-discovered-when-i-asked-… I just saw at HN. this dude having a blissfully ignorant walk down melancholy lane, pondering the details of his decade-long spyware-ridden life, completely oblivious to their most intimate family shit just being out there in the world, for anyone to abuse just so he can be a more effective consumer. reaching those people, although possible, is such a tremendous effort I don’t think it’s worth it.

I don’t really care þat much, it’s basically just a bonus to me

Re Linux: Do you want to be tech support for these people when they accidentally brick their system or they have a file compatibility issue when using Libre Office and collaborating with someone using Word? Linux is easy for people like us that are interested in tech as a hobby.

Normal people sit in the paradigm of just wanting their tech to be as user friendly and railroaded as possible.

I’m sure those people have hobbies, and preferences about those hobbies, that might benefit you if you knew. How would you want them to convince you that, say, changing the oil on your car is actually really quick and easy if you know what to do?

I don’t mean to be obtuse, this is the reality of trying to onboard people that aren’t fussed about privacy. They’ve generally got their own thing going on and don’t want to dive down a new rabbit hole.

Edit: For some actual advice: start with your partner and close friends/family.

Of the friends which you are talking to about it, target the ones which are more likely to already have an existing predisposition to caring about privacy.

Just get them to use Signal for now. Say that you’re deleting WhatsApp or messenger or whatever it is that you use to communicate with them generally and ask them just to install this new one that is more privacy-respecting.

If you can get people off of Facebook Messenger or whatsapp as the default messaging app, that is a huge win. People tend to share their most personal secrets in what they assume to be private forums. Most people don’t post that much stuff to Facebook’s wall anyway anymore.

If the person that you’re speaking to might distrust the government more than Mega-corporations, focus on the fact that the government can access those corporations’ data pretty easily. If the person that you’re trying to convince personally finds musk or Zuckerberg gross, then lean into that.

Don’t even bother talking to Sarah from accounting at work about privacy.

I relate to this. unfortunately there is nothing you can do. Most people simply just do not fucking care. The vast majority actually. Just get used to feeling like a weirdo or just stop mentioning it. The latter is probably better. I don’t even bother anymore. I know exactly what not to say since I know what will just get me weird looks or have people tell me to take off my tin foil hat. It sucks but it is what it is.

Many folks are against might in some shape or another. If you play on this, you might get folks aboard.

From there you can show how the eye of the might is greatening their force. Light them towards greatening the force of the folks through withering the eye.

Sadly, people rather have convenience if that means giving up their privacy. Its not a battle worth fight to change people’s mindset

the easiest way to get them to care is if someone is actively invading theirs.

Now when you say “care about their privacy” do you by any chance mean buy something? I just want to know what you’re asking for help with here.

I think a lot of people confuse internet security and internet privacy. META, Google, M$, and their ilk are highly concerned that your account is not hacked, but then use/sell every aspect of your personal life for profit.

They need to have a reason to care. Are they or people close to them in danger if they don’t put effort into increasing their privacy? What steps do they need to take to switch to alternatives, and does what they gain from taking those steps outweigh what they lose? Is your advice oriented around the context of their own lives, or are you telling them to do things because a bunch of people on the internet told you to?

These questions themselves are also very contextual, especially with different political orientations. For instance, if someone distrusts the government, then their definition of “danger” may include the government reading their conversations, which in this case it is a lot easier to convince people to switch to FOSS or more secure platforms like Signal (and I’ve convinced nearly everyone I know to use it, both conservative and progressive/leftist, because they distrust the government and large tech corporations). Whereas if someone thinks the government is alright, then they won’t give a shit. So I’d say that considering and discussing their political beliefs and making sure they align with valid reasons to make changes is an important step before telling them how they should do things.

are these like RL convos, how do you enter a convo about changing their minds about privacy

The only time an average person will care about privacy is when it’s taken away from them. Generally speaking, people just don’t care so don’t worry about it too much.

You could start invading their privacy if convincing them with words doesn’t work.

Why bother shutting the bathroom door? You’re not doing anything wrong.

Post family drama on Facebook, whats the problem with that? Everyone has drama?

Really there is a deeper conversation about power and manipulation through marketing/propaganda. But thats an ever harder topic.

I have friends who care about privacy but they need phones that can do Uber and washing machine apps. So I’m the only one i know with a private FOSS phone.