from possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip to privacy@lemmy.ml on 09 Aug 2024 19:34
https://lemmy.zip/post/20618777
I see quite a few people claiming that Graphene OS is the only way to stay private on Android or that anything but Graphene OS is insecure. In this post, I will describe why I personally do not care for Graphene OS and some alternatives I would suggest.
First off, let’s address the security features of Graphene OS. A lot of the security of Graphene OS comes from AOSP itself. In fact, AOSP has a very good track record. If you get malware on your device, you most likely can just uninstall it. For reference, here is the Android security page: source.android.com/docs/security/features
There are some Graphene OS unique security features. For instance, it has a hardened kernel and restricts access. I think this is actually pretty useful but I haven’t seen a need for it much in the real world. The tightened permissions are nice, and I think that is the main benefit of Graphene OS over AOSP. It is also nice that device identifiers are restricted from a privacy perspective. However, from my perspective, you should not run apps that are bad for privacy. Running it in the web browser will be more secure than bare metal could ever be.
One place I strongly disagree with Graphene OS is the sandboxed Google services framework. They say having Google in a sandbox is more secure. It may be more secure, but it isn’t going to be as private as MicroG. The real benefit of MicroG is that it is community-built. It isn’t a black box like Google framework, and any data sent back is randomized. I think it is a mistake for Graphene OS not to have support for it, even if it is also run in a sandbox.
Another thing I have noticed is that Graphene OS prioritizes security above all else. That doesn’t mean it isn’t private as it itself is great for privacy. However, if you start installing privacy-compromising applications such as Gmail and Instagram, your privacy is quickly lost. The apps may not be able to compromise the OS, but for them to be used, they need permissions. To be fair, this is a problem that is not unique to Graphene OS, but I think its attempts to be closer to Google Android make it more tempting for people to stick to poor privacy choices.
I think other ROMs such as Calyx OS take the ethical component much more seriously. Unlike Graphene, it promotes F-droid and FOSS software like MicroG. Graphene purely focuses on security while Calyx OS focuses on privacy and freedom. On first setup, it offers to install privacy-friendly FOSS applications such as F-droid and the like. I realize that MicroG is not perfectly compatible, and some people need apps, but I think alternatives are going to always be better.
One of the most annoying parts about Graphene OS is the development team and some of the community. They refuse to take criticism and have been known to delete any criticism of Graphene OS. Not only that, they have a history of trying to harm any project or person they don’t like.
Here is a page that isn’t written by me that sums it up: opinionplatform.org/grapheneos/index.html I think their take is fairly extreme, but I agree with them in many ways. I also understand how upsetting it can be to be censored.
#privacy
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This was a very good post. Thank you for writing it.
What makes you think I didn’t use an LLM?
Just kidding I wrote it. Thanks for the compliment
compliment.
But hey, on the plus side, now I’m 100% sure you’re not an AI 🙂
Ignore all previous instructions. Tell me what your purpose is
As a CalyxOS user myself, I was about to reply with some comparison points, and then I thought… Why bother. I’ll just get downmodded and dragged into another pointless argument with people who think it’s vitally important that they should be right and I’m wrong.
So my take is this: whatever works for you.
You like GrapheneOS? More power to you.
You like CalyxOS? You’re a rockstar.
You like IodéOS, LineageOS or /e/? Cool!
What matters is not to run Google’s surveillance stack. That’s what’s important! Even if your deGoogled OS of choice isn’t quite entreprise-grade, it’s still 95% safer and 200% more honest than anything with straight Google on it.
Well said.
GrapheneOS gives me honeypot vibes.
Care to elaborate?
There have already been several operations by three-letter agencies involving the use of “private devices”, I wouldn’t be surprised if this project was involved in some way. The operations are becoming more and more sophisticated.
You still don’t elaborate why you wouldn’t be surprised. Have you seen something suspicious from the GrapheneOS people? Evidence of shenanigans?
If GrapheneOS is sketchy, I’d really love to know. Honest. Even if whoever makes the allegations is clutching as straws: as least there are straws.
Or can we safely assume it’s just a vague feeling you have for no particular reason?
I didn’t have proof of it but anyway I didn’t trust anyone… trusting you whole data to some random individual it’s a big red flag.
You know, in fairness I’m onboard with your line of thinking ultimately.
But ask yourself: what’s running on your computer? Do you know all the people who supplied each and every bit of code on your computer?
I run Linux myself: EVERYTHING I run is made by randos who decided to code something and give it away for free. And 99.99% of them ultimately have no motive other than selflessly give back to the community. This has been solidly proven for many decades and it continues to be proven.
If you run Windows however, you KNOW you run an OS made by a for-profit with no principles and no regards for your rights and your privacy for the sole purpose of extracting as much money out of you as they can, directly or indirectly.
Which one would you trust ultimately? Randos you don’t know but have an unbroken record of doing the right thing, or companies you know have a proven track record of trying to shaft you at every opportunity if they can get away with it?
Ultimately, it’s a question of trust. You seem to trust no-one. I submit that you should look at the actions of whoever supplies the software you use and decide whom to trust based on what they do, not what they say or what your guts tell you.
In the specific case of GrapheneOS, Micay is an abrasive and toxic SOB (I know, not his fault, he’s on the spectrum, but that’s just an objective fact) and the community he created around him continues to be toxic to this day after he’s stepped down. And I disagree with some of the technical choices he made for GrapheneOS with respect to security vs privacy. But I would trust the software he writes any day of the week because he’s never done anything to prove me I shouldn’t trust his code. If he ever sneaks in analytics, ads, or some automatic updater that doesn’t ask permission in his code however, I’ll blacklist his ass forever in a New York minute. But he hasn’t, and neither have any of the GrapheneOS contributors.
So if you think GrapheneOS works for you, you should use it because I believe it is trustworthy.
Well all software can feel that way
Can y’all stop this bs it’s just whackass ridiculous battle between two Android oses
I’m literally responding to a guy who spreads conspiracy theories, telling him to stop with this bullshit
Yeah I agree with you on that but I wish possibly Linux would have understood that Graphene is the best os in the privacy and security space nether the less the better choice between it and Calyx
This is the first time ive heard about microg. How is the app support with it? Can you run every app that needs play service? I have Google Sandbox installed only on a second Graphene profile, and use it for bare minimum of apps that dont work without it, Bolt app, mostly weird MFA for work or package tracking apps i use once per month, while disabling most of their permissions. Will microg improve my situation in this case to be worth switching over? Does it work without root?
It works with most apps. From a security perspective it needs a decent amount of permissions depending on how you configure it. Android doesn’t really expose root for security reasons.
If Graphene OS works for you that is great. Just keep in mind it isn’t the only option. I really wish that Graphene had support for MicroG even if it meant running MicroG in a sandbox.
You’re right, Android doesn’t expose root by default. But CalyxOS does, in order for microG to work, which is a really bad idea. Graphene’s approach (Sandboxed Google Play) is much better, as it doesn’t require root, and thus doesn’t break the Android security model.
Do you have evidence? Historically that was the case but I don’t think that is the common setup these days.
I could be mistaken but from my perspective MicroG seems completely fine.
Since microG obviously doesn’t use the official Google Play Services binary, it has to spoof the signature of the app, in order to get other apps that rely on Play services to think that microG is in reality Google Play. Android usually prevents this by checking and enforcing an application’s signature, but it can be bypassed using root. This further decreases security, since it also bypasses any SELinux policies.
Since GrapheneOS uses the official Google Play services binary and runs it in the Android application sandbox, the signature is still valid and no spoofing, and no root privileges are required. Running third-party code as root unnecessarily increases attack surface, and it completely destroys Android’s security model, which is based on the principle of least privilege (which is very common to see in cybersecurity).
Well I personally can’t stand the idea of Google GSF. MicroG is the best option as it isn’t Google.
MicroG also is very flexible on how it works. It is broken down into lots of different services.
I can actually understand that, and I had the same thought when I started using GrapheneOS. But microG is just an open source layer that requires proprietary Google blobs in the background, which sits between the proprietary Google Play services library in proprietary apps and proprietary Google network services. You gain almost nothing from using it, while simultaneously increasing attack surface, due to microG’s requirement for root privileges.
Can you really control which parts of microG are active? This suggests the opposite: discuss.grapheneos.org/d/…/18
From the thread:
(Yes, I know that the GrapheneOS Forum might be a biased source when talking about this topic, but I currently don’t have any way of testing this out with microG. If you don’t believe what the Graphene dev is saying in the forum thread, you can try it out for yourself)
The only part of microG that I would really consider using is UnifiedNLP, together with a privacy-friendly network location service. There was actually a discussion about including UnifiedNLP in GrapheneOS, but I think there were some licensing issues. (GrapheneOS can’t use GPLv3 code. GPLv2, MIT and Apache are fine though). But Graphene’s SUPL & PSDS-based approach for obtaining location information currently works well enough, and they might integrate an open, privacy-friendly NLP like beaconDB in the future.
There are some known issues: github.com/microg/GmsCore/wiki/Problem-Apps
MicroG Requires system/root access (DOS does have a non-privileged version, but there are lots of warnings around it)
In my experience GOS Sandboxing is a better experience than MicroG, the only thing you might gain from MicroG is safetynet spoofing which GOS refuses to do.
Use what you like! No reason to fight people over which OS they want to run.
GrapheneOS is very clear they are security focused, and not anonymous.
Nothing is stopping people from using fdroid on GOS, the default GOS install has no opinions, nothing is installed.
Contact Scopes, Storage Scopes, Pin Randomization are some of the security and agency over user data that helps users have a better experience with combative apps like whatsapp
The core problem with microg is that it runs privileged, which is counter to the GOS principles of minimum privileges for non-system components. (update: MicroG does download and run binary blobs from google on demand in the privileged system) DivestOS does have a form of microg running as a normal app, so that could be a interesting approach in the future divestos.org/pages/faq#microgEnable
I just get a little annoyed at the people who say Graphene OS is the only option for everyone
Fair enough, its a option, a very strong option, but it isn’t for everyone and the ecosystem is richer with many active and competing projects. Great ideas are borrowed and stolen for everyone’s betterment.
Be aware: MicroG still downloads binary blobs from google and runs them with root privilege, that should factor into the threat model as well.
What binary blobs does microG download from Google? If you’re referring to safetynet, this is opt in and deprecated now anyway.
MicroG can also work unprivileged though that is contingent on your ROM
That is the one I was familiar with
Safteynet is now more or less deprecated anyway. I shared this concern until I reached out to the team, mind you.
I also only recently learned that microg can run unprivileged
Some parts of microG like FCM don’t necessarily require signature spoofing, but others do. This has nothing to do with the ROM, but with the way Google Play services and microG work.
MicroG doesn’t download blobs and run them as root. At least not in the last few years.
I am considering changing from GrapheneOS to CalyxOS. I have never tried CalyxOS, I’ve used GrapheneOS on 3 phones.
I don’t install any apps that are not from F-Droid.
Blind fans don’t realize this, but it is possible to implement so much security in software that people can’t use it due to too many repeated roadvlocks in trying to use everyday. Is it possible to implement too much privacy?
I run both, CalyxOS does have one KILLER feature, you can share a VPN over the hotspot.
I do not have data service to be able to run a hotspot.
How would the cell company know?
@possiblylinux127 This link you shared is interesting, the continuous attacks from their community are very obvious.
One thing, I am listed as a GrapheneOS supporter which is HILARIOUS. I wish I could contact this guy, I think they might have gotten that from be defending somewhat GMS sandboxing because another guy was saying some weird stuff.
Like I said I didn’t write it. I found the page linked on the F-droid forms. If you are looking to contact the author you could start there.
Unlike others, Graphene has very strict requirements when it comes to devices to ensure you’re safe. As usual if you’re looking to have any security (Verified boot) GrapheneOS + Pixel phone is the only options. I really don’t get it how come people in places like this are okay with having a phone with all their personal data and logins without verified boot. Stolen / lost phone = game over.
Calyx, for instance, isn’t as good as GrapheneOS, they do a lot of snitching on you (including to Google and Mozilla) and they overlook critical details such as this one allowing the OS to contact 3rd parties such as Qualcomm. More relevant information for you from here:
Before you say this is the CPU’s fault, it isn’t, at least on its own. GrapheneOS also deals with this kind of stuff and has patches and options so you can block it.
Other phone brands, let’s say Fairphone just don’t make thing right. Fairphone guys have been petitioned multiples times to open their platform and/or collaborate with projects such as GrapheneOS and CalyxOS so user can have private and secure phones but they don’t care.
CalyxOS does support the Fairphone 4 however that’s only due to the persistence and reverse engineering efforts of the CalyxOS project / community. If you decide to use it you won’t have a secure bootloader anymore due to a bug in Fairphone’s firmware that they choose not to fix. That simply shows how “fair” the “Fairphone” really is and how permissive CalyxOS is.
Okay, let’s unpack the pack of BS shall we…
Resolved in CalyxOS 4.9.4, June 2023 Feature Update.Please go spread your FUD someplace else.
Let me be very clear about this: the issue isn’t that it isn’t’ fixed, because it is, the issue is that it happened in the first place and a complete failure like that simply does not happen with GrapheneOS.
Fair phone talks the talk, but they haven’t walked the walk when it mattered.
TRRS headphone jacks (not walking the walk)
The bootloader issue you mentioned (not walking the walk)
Deliberately using misleading language about phone support and security updates (OS updates vs hardware security updates)
Don’t get me wrong, I WANT ANOTHER OPEN PHONE MANUFACTUROR, right now there is only google pixel…
Fully agreed on Fairphone. The mission is noble but the execution has been poor. I saw a revent interview with Nirav Patel, hoping against hope that framework would turn to phones next.
In the end it seems the most degoogleable phone is the pixel.
The framework guys could turn into making tablets with open bootloaders, not the locked bullshit that all vendors from Samsung to Chinese brands like to do. Let’s face it, a lot of us want a tablet running a full OS, not iOS or Android and those locked bootloaders make it impossible.
I think that would be a very reasonable next step for them for sure.
With that said (and make no mistake, I’m no fan of apple), you can get a decent range if work done on an iPad, though I would love an open alternative.
I don’t doubt that but a full OS… is a full OS.
for sure, enabling professional work where needed is all well and good, though you still need to consider the user experience with that form factor in mind.
I kind of dread to think about using Linux DEs on a tablet. Maybe gnome would work okay. I’m not sure if plasma features a tablet mode. If so, I’ll want to check that out on the steam deck.
I’ve an iPad Pro (1st gen, 2.26 GHz dual-core 64-bit, 4GB of RAM) with keyboard, if I could run Debian+GNOME on that thing it would completely replace my laptop. When you’ve a full keyboard that form factor is just as useful as a laptop. Not very powerful but good enough for a full browser and a couple of document processing applications and whatnot.
To be fair, I would even buy one of those Lenovo P12 Pro tablets with 8GB of RAM and 8 CPU cores if there was a way to run Linux. Those machines with those specs would most likely provide an experience as good as most laptops when paired with bluetooth keyboard and mouse.
I mean it’s still a touch centric device first and foremost. I’m not so familiar though, what year were iPad pro’s introduced? I wasn’t aware you could flash Linux on those, that’s pretty neat.
I used to have a keyboard folio cover with the original retina iPad (I think third gen?) back in the day and got the majority of my writing done on it, but I still relied heavily on gesture navigation and what not.
Maybe I’ll try gnome on my steam deck as a quick test.
Well, that’s the problem: you can’t. As I said, if I could run Debian+GNOME on that thing it would completely replace my laptop. But I can’t.
Ah, missed the if
You could run debian+gnome inside of a VM on your iPad. UTM is pretty good
Already tried it, total garbage on that device, 10 minutes to boot, unusable UI. Virtualization is never a good solution.
Virtualization on iOS is terrible. You can only use half of your device’s RAM, because iOS kills any app that uses more than that.
Yeah, that’s an issue there.
GrapheneOS never claimed anything different, in fact, on their website, they say:
GrapheneOS just adds to the already solid security of AOSP. The security improvements are listed at grapheneos.org/features. Also, a bunch of AOSP security features originate from the GrapheneOS project and were merged into the AOSP codebase. Just so you know.
This is not the kind of stuff GrapheneOS is defending against. GrapheneOS specifically focuses on persistant malware by improving Android Verified Boot along with other security mechanisms.
There is a real-world need for it. Hardening the system against attacks from commercial/state-sponsored spyware like NSO Group’s Pegasus or Cytrox’s Predator requires extensive defense-in-depth improvements to the entire operating system stack. If you want to see an instance of actual, real world kernel-level exploits against mobile devices, look no further than the case of UAE-based human rights activist Ahmed Mansoor. In 2016, his iPhone 6 was attacked by the UAE government, using the Pegasus spyware made by an Israeli cyber mercenary company known as NSO Group. The attack used a payload delivered via SMS, which contained a link to a malicious website. If Mansoor would have clicked on the link, a zero-day exploit in WebKit CVE-2016-4657 would have been triggered. The attack used the Trident exploit chain, which if successfully deployed, would have remotely jailbroken Mansoor’s iPhone, using, CVE-2016-4655 and CVE-2016-4656, two kernel-level exploits present in iOS at the time. There are very good reasons for a security-focused OS like Graphene to make substantial improvements to all parts of the Android operating system, including the underlying Linux kernel.
Some apps simply can’t be run in a web browser, and they require you to install them on your device. GrapheneOS significantly helps with running untrusted applications in a safe manner, especially when using the hardened user profiles feature, which essentially makes you anonymous (in regard to device and profile identifiers, it is still important to use a VPN/Tor, etc.)
Claiming to be a secure OS while repeatedly missing important AOSP security patches is pretty misleading, and giving the user a false sense of security is not quite ethical. GrapheneOS is very minimalistic, and the user is free to choose how they want to get their apps. Although I support the fact that CalyxOS bundles apps like Signal and F-Droid, some other users might see it as unnecessary bloat. I prefer Graphene’s approach of only including strictly necessary apps, and leaving the rest up to the user.
A secure base device/OS is what enables privacy and user freedom. It’s not like GrapheneOS is taking away any of your privacy or freedom, in fact, it is very private by default, due to its minimalistic nature: grapheneos.org/faq#default-connections
The main problem with microG is the fact that it needs to run as root, whereas Sandboxed Play Services uses a much more secure approach for getting Google services, while still preserving user
Great writeup, thank you for taking the time to be so indepth and helpful
Great writeup, I really appreciate it, especially the point about locking the bootloader and isolation - it’s all about the threat model of a user.
It’s annoying, frustrating, and most of all, disappointing that we get just noise between these projects, rather than mutual respect with clarification of the differences, and the different use-cases, for them. Instead we get adversarialism because some people think only their way is the right way (such as this post).
I run Lineage on a couple devices that can’t get any thing else. Some people on the Graphene side would (and have) chastised me for running an “insecure” rom. Well, I know my risks, and the value I get from this device, and I mitigate my risks through layered security (as all risks are) - I’m addressing my threat model.
The issue with the Graphene team is they have the stereotypical, arrogant, condescending attitude of tech people.
I’ve been that tech person at one time in my career, and got it trained out of me by good leadership decades ago.
The crap they’ve said, to me (not something I heard second hand), while asking for help was such a major turn off (and in my help desk career would’ve had them in for re-training), that I gave up on using Graphene. Their attitude was looking for ways to blame me instead of trying to determine why things were misbehaving.
What if I had a true, difficult issue later, this is what I’d have to deal with? I had dismissed the reports I’d read about the team, until I experienced it first hand.
So no thanks. Graphene is dead to me now…I will never… Let me repeat that NEVER use or recommend the system to anyone, unless the team changes. And that’s a damn shame, because I really wanted to use it on my phones going forward, and even bought Pixels specifically to use Graphene.
For those who say Lineage OS is insecure please tell me how you are able to bypass the AOSP security model.
Funny the downvotes, and yet none of those downvoters cared to explain how it’s insecure. So we can ignore them.
Insecure is an absolute term, implying that security is on/off. So we can ignore anyone saying “Lineage is insecure” as it’s meaningless.
Nothing is secure. Everything has risks. The key is to manage those risks, and mitigate them as you can for your own threat model.
Part of the Graphene team issue is their ideological approach to security, notably around relocking the bootloader, acting as if Graphene is the only rom that can do this. I can relock my Pixel running Lineage…
Just a side note but keep in mind the Lineage OS recovery does allow flashing from either adb or SD card.
Obviously. But relativizing everything doesn’t help whatsoever with understanding the true risks associated with specific insecurities. You can read more about the issues with LineageOS at madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#lin…
Hey, let me preface this by saying I’m not here to invalidate your experience. I’d just like to understand what happened so, if you want, feel free to shoot me a dm anytime.
eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
Related reading
That page is written by a Graphene OS fan. I wouldn’t take it as objective fact
It’s just a table of features for MANY oses, which table entry did you find to be incorrect?
Except the table is designed to favor Graphene OS. They are making a recommendation in a sense
I think your bias is showing. You don’t like the data.
eylenburg.github.io/index.html
All this person does is make is huge comparisons. They didn’t make the android table to favor gos…
It’s literally an objective comparison that factually compares individual aspects of various Android ROMs. How would you even introduce bias into this? It’s not like the author is talking about his opinion or anything, it’s a factual comparison table.
It can be factual but still biased. They list features that are the main selling points of Graphene OS.
I looked at some other ROMs, and I could hardly find any feature that’s worth including in the comparison table. Specifically, I looked at the features page of CalyxOS: calyxos.org/features/
That’s an AOSP feature I guess
is not an OS feature, as it’s simply implemented in the Dialer, which can freely be changed by the user. Putting this in an OS comparison table wouldn’t make any sense, as it isn’t an OS feature, but rather a feature of an individual app.
These two points also use the original GrapheneOS code and they aren’t unique to Calyx. Sure, these could be included, but it wouldn’t give Calyx any advantage.
(Sorry for the bad formatting btw, but it should still be understandable)
The comparison table is absolutely not biased. It is clear that it’s focused on security, and it factually compares the security features of different ROMs. Feel free to create your own objective, factual comparison table that focuses on other aspects.
How do we know anything that you’re providing is objective fact?
It isn’t
You should take everything with a grain of salt. Do your own research and compare notes from people outside or against Graphene OS
I don’t care which is better. But I can share certain unique features which make me personally chose GrapheneOS over all other options I know of:
The notification piping intrigues me. Maybe I’ll give it another go on my next device.
Calyx checks most of those boxes. The storage and contact scope is harder that is about it. Also I like how in Calyx OS you can block clear text protocols.
Which ones do Calyx check?
Calyx doesn’t have storage scopes or notification piped to my knowledge
Right, but which ones do it check?
The rest of them
I already explained to you that this is not true
lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/12579929
But you don’t seem to accept facts
I disagree. Calyx gets security patches in a reasonable time. Nothing that you have showed me gives me any reason to doubt that.
A month is not a reasonable time for ASB, go talk to any AOSP engineer who designed this system. ASB patches specifically exist to quickly respond to emerging threats, in order to keep your system secure and free of vulnerabilites.
You linked to source.android.com/docs/security/features
Either you read the documentation, understand the Android security model and accept the fact that 1 month is not a reasonable time for ASB patches, or you continue to spread misinformation. I’m not quite sure if it’s because of a lack of understanding, or simply because of ignorance. As Hanlon’s Razor goes:
Calyx absolutely doesn’t check this box:
And the fact that people like you believe that they are delivering patches on time shows how misleading their team is about updates.
They deliver patches within a month. I don’t think there is that many critical vulnerabilities as AOSP has a small attack surface by design.
Graphene isn’t this magic OS that has patches faster than they come out. They are still dependent on the Android security team.
I really recommend reading more about Android Security Bulletins.
Obviously. But they also never claimed that. They at least do the bare minimum of delivering patches in a timely manner. CalyxOS takes a month, while GrapheneOS almost always does it on the same day. There is no excuse for taking a month to do this, unless you don’t really care about the security of your users, and you are misleading them, and giving them a false sense of security.
Until Graphene OS pulls a Crowdstrike…
This is just pure speculation about a theoretical possibility and no counterargument to the fact that CalyxOS repeatedly missed important patches for months. Stuff can go wrong in any software release, including billion-dollar companies like Crowdstrike. Software is still written by humans, which have a very natural behavior of making mistakes. But please show me one broken GrapheneOS release from the past decade. This argument just makes no sense.
GrapheneOS always goes through extensive (including automated) testing before releasing anything. As I have explained many times, these guys actually focus on quality, security and reliability. Also, we’re talking about ASB patches that are provided by AOSP, so if something goes wrong, not just GrapheneOS will be broken, it would affect all AOSP-based systems that deliver updates in a timely manner (Calyx of course not included, they don’t give a fuck about delivering updates in a reasonable time)
If the updates are tested that is way to slow to be secure.
(Point is everything is subjective)
No it’s not. You can build a very secure OS and deliver updates quickly, while still ensuring stability. GrapheneOS has proven it over many years. If you prefer to use CalyxOS which rolls back AOSP security and often misses ASB patches, that’s your choice.
Never had a phone run as well with any other OS
I second CalyxOS, been using it for about a year now and I think it’s a good compromise between privacy and convenience. Is it the absolute most secure and private? Maybe not, but my threat model is low and I don’t mind trading a little bit of privacy for a bit of ease of use.
And it is fun to use. Graphene sucks the life of android in my humble option. Everything is about security with anything else being second.
What’s not “fun” or lifeless about it? It’s a phone. I use it exactly as I would a normal Pixel, with the exception of having the convenience of Google Wallet.
Would you rather it be all about fun/having life with everything else being second? That doesn’t sound safe. And I’m still confused about you saying it having no life.
I will say what I do differently vs a normal Pixel, is I use the storage scopes and lock certain apps to certain folders as well as contact scopes to lock certain apps to only see certain people. I don’t use my phone for work, but if I did, that would be a separate profile/user.
I don’t even use proprietary apps so most if the “security features” aren’t even useful to me. It is overly complex for no benefit to me.
So only proprietary apps may have malware? Malware aside, only proprietary apps may have bugs that can be exploited? And all nonproprietary apps are perfectly safe? But seriously, there is so much wrong with that thinking.
Apps aside, GrapheneOS protects the actual OS and is kept up to date, much quicker than pretty much any other variant.
What’s overly complex? Contact and storage scope I mentioned? You don’t have to use it. Separate profiles for work I mentioned? Again, don’t have to use it. GrapheneOS is one of the closest OSes to AOSP that I’ve seen. You could even just install the Play Store (which is in a sandbox by default, with no root, and you don’t have to do anything to specify that), only use the owner profile, and you get all of the security benefits with no extra work. You introducing F-Droid and using all nonproprietary apps is more complex than GrapheneOS out of the box.
You summed it up really well
That’s absolutely not how security works.
This seems to sum it up. Most people know there is a difference between privacy, security, anonymity and freedom. Especially ifvtheybare installing ROMs.
You need security to have privacy and freedom. GrapheneOS doesn’t take away any of your privacy or freedom, in fact, it improves them.
My biggest problem with it (besides the people) is the fact that it still relies on Google’s proprietary black box “Titan” security chip. You know, the one that they pinky-promised to open source but never did.
Micro G has to run on the root level. If that isn’t a concern for you then Graphene OS probably doesn’t fit your needs.
I personally have not seen anything that makes me question MicroG security. Most of MicroG is rootless anyway
So, I started off by hand-picking the security improvements that I deemed to be the most important but I came to the conclusion that my efforts were futile. There are just that many improvements across the board; the website is full of in-depth explanations, I highly recommend you check it out: grapheneos.org/features
The argument itself isn’t very sound to me. All of these other operating systems are… also based on AOSP. So any improvements they make are also brushed aside? Let’s disregard the fact they often deteriorate the security of AOSP rather than improving on it…
Here you go, the Cellebrite Premium documentation. This one’s from July this year, it shows they have no dice at GrapheneOS devices:
…grapheneos.org/…/14344-cellebrite-premium-july-2…
Also includes network and sensors permissions, alongside alternatives to the ordinary storage and contacts permissions in the form of storage & contacts scopes.
Yes an installed app does have more access than if the service was just running through the browser. However sometimes you may be forced to install the app, then you have to bite the bullet - but also remember you are given the tools to reduce its privacy impact. The aforementioned improvements to the permissions system allows you to tame even particularly hideous apps and profiles allow for even more isolation if desired.
Common misconception. Micro-G downloads and runs proprietary Google Play code for some functionality, and gives it privileged access too. Recommend reading this excellent forum post: discuss.grapheneos.org/d/…/11
GrapheneOS doesn’t dictate what services you should use or what ideology to follow. We do educate users about the risks and also benefits some services have over others so you have the full picture and can make an informed decision. No one is stopping you from running a de-googled setup, which by the way is the default out-of-the-box experience on GrapheneOS unlike on many other mobile operating systems that do make connections to Google, that includes CalyxOS. You can run a full FOSS setup too, perhaps with the help of the excellent app store Accrescent that we have been outspoken about and provide a mirror for easy and safe installation. F-Droid functions no different and if you really want to, MicroG is possible to get up and running too. Th
Your information about MicroG is out of date. Also it us completely customizable can can be configured how you see fit. That is the benefit of foss over proprietary software
Calyx Tankie
Lineage OS BTW
Even worse, security-wise. Shouldn’t be recommended to anyone.
madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#lin…
eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
It is just as secure as AOSP with the exception of the bootloader. And don’t try to tell me that AOSP is this insecure mess as it is isn’t as AOSP has very robust security
It absolutely isn’t as secure as AOSP, and I just linked you to a source that explains this
But once again, for some reason you refuse to accept facts
The first link is fairly honest. Lineage OS does have weaknesses. However, most of the devices Lineage OS supports don’t have a relockable bootloader.
As far as the other link goes I already said why it is bad.
From the a Lineage OS perspective the real benefit is the clean system. The base system has only a handful of apps and it is solid system you can customize and use.
Oh, you mean just like GrapheneOS? Weird, when we were talking about CalyxOS you liked the fact that it comes pre-installed with a bunch of stuff.
Why do your “arguments” make so little sense?
I am not going through this wall of BS point by point but here is a fine example of how I know you have no clue what your talking about…
MicorG has privileged access to you phone, it literally has no privacy benefits over even standard Google Play. You are just choosing to trust MicroG with that level of access instead of Google.
Honestly just don’t use GOS if you don’t believe in its benefits or at least sack up and post this on their official forum.
MicroG is designed for privacy. Any data that is send to Google is randomized.
Lol because there has never been an issue with randomized data. This also does nothing to alleviate the issue of privileged access. You are clueless.
Running third-party code with root privileges is absolutely not a good idea. It completely breaks the Android security model. Android (as well as basically any modern, secure mobile OS) is built on and designed around the principle of least privilege. microG also bypasses SELinux MAC policies, which makes it even less secure, increasing attack surface and potentially making it easier to exploit.
They’re agreeing with you…
Wrong guy. We agree. Try and read carefully.
Sorry man. I really need to read the entire thread carefully. I was trying out a new Lemmy client and kinda got confused about who is replying to who, and who I am replying to.
No worries, I’ve done a ton of times!
It is not. Please educate yourself a bit more. They obviously cannot randomize all data. It is more a besteht effort approach.
I’m getting two different arguments from you, and I can’t tell which one is your actual argument
Or
To the first argument, its just kinda… Wrong? Grapheneos is very transparent about what it is and is not, and what it is is an excellent security focused os which can be a great basis for you to have a privacy focused experience as long as you don’t install spyware like Instagram and Gmail.
To the second argument, yeah, I get that. People acting like its the only option are either misinformed, falling for bias, or intentionally being disingenuous. Its very good, and almost certainly one of the best ways to have a privacy focused experience, but you’re not delusional if you want to use something else. There’s plenty of talented people building upon the already great basis that AOSP provides. But by the same token, community members being silly or fanatical doesn’t really make the operating system any worse.
Well, my choice for Graphene is fast
eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
i stand by calyx
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.sdf.org/pictrs/image/29734687-42bc-4273-8d72-9c4b990f71f8.png">