from Timely_Jellyfish_2077@programming.dev to privacy@lemmy.ml on 14 Aug 07:15
https://programming.dev/post/35649665
It feel like we’re losing to Google, day by day. They aren’t killing AOSP directly, but they are making it useless step by step.
Now it’s Google Play Services, Play Integrity checks, installation source checks… more and more apps just refuse to run without GMS. Banking apps? Most of them don’t work. And it’s only getting worse. I run vanilla AOSP on my main profile, no Play Services. I keep GMS only in my work profile for the apps that absolutely need it. But now even some regular apps that don’t need any play services won’t work on my main profile anymore. They simply block your from running , like le chat.
Maps is google’s most important app there is no way to run without play services. Sure we can use webview or gmaps wv, but they don’t provide turn-by-turn directions. Earlier maps used to work without play services, but two years ago, an update stopped it from working. Now that old version is out of date and no longer works.
Google is slowly making GMS very important to run. The problem with GMS is they require to run as system app and has to have all the permissions by default.
Hope EU puts pressure to make google allow apps to run independently without GMS or atleast install them as user apps(like graphene os sandboxed play services).
If we keep going on like this, AOSP can only run fdroid apps in the future.
threaded - newest
There are a million maps apps, even google itself has two (Waze). Banking is easily accessible thru a web browser. Also, rooting your phone gives you ability to fake a lot of the requirements to make stubborn apps run.
I am sorry I tried many many maps apps, but none come close enough to replace google maps completely. No reviews, photos, live traffic, raw data etc. Google maps is truly miles ahead of the alternatives, especially in India.
But why do you need it all in one app? As you’ve noted, there are alternatives like GMaps WV that deliver all the other stuff. Combine that with any other navigation app and you have everything Google Maps delivers, without relying on its app.
These questions 🤣
Because it’s easier and it works better.
It was one question, and it’s a relevant one. If you are worried about Google cutting support for Google Maps on AOSP, the solution is not to double down on the Google ecosystem. There’s not going to be some magical perfect replacement for Google Maps out of nowhere, the only way its competitors improve is if people use them.
If you don’t want to, that’s fine, just don’t start crying when Google pulls support out from under you.
Idk about India but here in the Netherlands almost all google reviews are fake. They’re not a good indicator of quality.
True, but the pictures are useful though. I can tell a decent pizza from a shite one from a picture.
There’s many navigation apps that have traffic, like Magic Earth which 100% runs without GMS.
For review you can use gmaps wv or TripAdvisor.
Here We Go has traffic and TripAdvisor integration, but I’m not sure whether it runs without GMS.
CoMaps has it on the docket to add opt in traffic at some point.
I can’t speak to any other countries, but in the states, Magic Earth has been great for me. Been using it for over two years now, several different regions of the USA. It’s not as good as Google Maps, but it’s plenty good enough for my needs.
Navigation and routing is solid, traffic data is acceptable, and the dashcam feature is awesome.
It’s easier and nicer. But it’s also shitty because of what you mentioned.
The thing is, that’s how it’s going to stay unless people stop using it. You can get this info you mentioned somewhere else, or simply don’t need it, as I said, yes it’s harder and less nice to live without it, but it’s not like you can’t live without live traffic data or whatever. Start using CoMaps, contribute to open street map, leave reviews on other review aggregators, etc etc
Photos and streetview are the most important features for me, otherwise I would be 10x more anxious going somewhere for the first time.
What is a good alternative that actually does navigation and searches on places as well as gmaps? I’ve been using OsmAnd and it’s absolutely dogshit compared to it. Even the navigation, the arguably most important part, is pretty bad.
Edit: actually spent some time looking again, and CoMaps does this quite well. This is replacing OsmAnd+ for me.
And I have the oppositie experience. I find gmaps routing much too agressive. Agree on the search issue.
I’m not sure what you mean by “aggressive routing”?
Gmaps often tries to be clever and recommends you to go off the main road onto some smaller one. This might be ok in USA but where I live its annoying at best. OsmAnd is much better in this regard.
I’m in Scandinavia and haven’t had issues with gmaps routing. The routing of OsmAnd is fine, but the navigation visualization is insanely bad, when you turn your phone horizontal they fill the whole screen with basically useless blank bars both at the top and bottom instead of just showing the map and turn-by-turn instructions in a corner like gmaps. That combined with the less than useless searching (if you don’t know the specific address of a place you’re pretty much SOoL) makes it really bad IME.
Look the address up and put it into the map app…problem solved.
Yes but that’s the nuisance you don’t want with an application specifically made to make navigation easier. I want good simple workflows, not shitty clunky workarounds.
Switching to FOSS/private alternatives is full of compromises. Considering this one takes about 10 seconds out of my life and is literally how all navigation worked before smartphones and learned helplessness, I think it’s well worth the trade-off.
Yeah i disagree that FOSS should be given extra slack just because…
It’s not about giving them extra slack, it’s aboit whether you want to live in reality or not. No small FOSS app is going to be a 1:1 match for Google Maps, that’s just a complete fantasy. So you, and others complaining in this thread, need to decide whether you are willing to make sacrifices to support big tech alternatives. If not, fine, but I don’t see the point in moaning about it online if you are unwilling to be part of the solution. The alternatives won’t magically improve if no one uses them, they need people to support the project and offer feedback to help shape future development.
I’m not expecting perfect matches, but what is considered basic proper functionality. Expecting a navigation app that is not just on par (or even worse) with a 25 year old TomTom is really not setting the bar high or expecting too much IMO.
And I do still use inferior apps to avoid big tech, but the constant shortcomings (some minor, some major) is extremely annoying, so yeah I’m venting some of that.
It does it in the US as well, and I find it infuriating. Especially when many of it’s “shortcuts” are worse for reasons that its algorithm doesn’t detect, like major pot holes, heavy pedestrian traffic, lack of visible street signs, etc.
Co maps is mostly garbage for places. Is missing my Wegmans for fucks sake 🤣
Just a heads up for your continued testing.
I don’t know what Wegmans is, but all the places I’ve tested so far was found, even small local artisanal shops in the town I live in.
CoMaps uses OpenStreetMap data, which is populated by the public, so you can fix your problem easily yourself by submitting the data you need that’s missing.
You can do this right from inside CoMaps, but also StreetComplete is another great app option for doing so.
I’ve done this for missing stuff in my area, my edits got verified and accepted very quickly. It’s much nicer than waiting for Google to maybe update their shit when it’s wrong.
Go ahead and contribute places you are missing to openstreetmaps.
My bank is accessible via web only if I authorize the login with the iOS or Android app - there are no alternatives.
Rooting also completely breaks the ability to run some apps with no recourse for spoofing the fact that it’s a rooted device.
Which ones? It’s pretty easy to pass Strong Integrity.
Passing strong integrity check isn’t always enough. My banking and government 2FA still don’t work on rooted devices (or graphene with locked bootloader and play services)
Until your bank 2nd factor requires google play services and all the banks in your country have the same requirement.
Yeah, that’s my case as well with my main bank. So I have a separate phone that remains off until I need it (and some other crappy apps for electricity, customs and other stuff). Otherwise I’m still rocking my trusty Pixel 8 Pro running on GrapheneOS from day 1. Now, it is highly likely that, from Pixel 10 and in GrapheneOS won’t be able to keep developing (I certainly hope I’m wrong), so I’m thinking on switching my 8 Pro for a 9Pro XL and keep it until GrapheneOS lands and agreement with an OEM to launch their own devices.
I guess all we can do is wait and see what happens in a month or so.
Looks like you’re Brazilian too, friend. Here is almost impossible to use banks through webapps cause all of them require their apps to 2fa so you’re obligated to download and use their apps. Luckly I’ve found bank apps that I can use on my lineage with microg phone.
Do you have access to credit unions?
Good; if an app isn’t in fdroid then you don’t need it and should move to its fdroid replacement.
Sadly there are apps that don’t have an F-Droid replacement.
Well if they matter and if the source code is available under an FSF approved license; then it should be relatively easy to get them in to fdroid
I wish that was the case but there is no source code, not even a web app. That’s the problem with most of them.
Then they were just going to disappear on you anyway. Best not to have them.
I stopped using Google Play Services 6 years ago. I only do my banking on PC. However, there are things I cannot do this. One example is, my local municipality’s public transportation app. It doesn’t have source code, it doesn’t have a web app, it doesn’t even have an API. I already cannot use its some parts due to its dependency of Google Play Services. Not having this app would just make my life harder.
Public funds, public code.
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Well that is true for people who live off gig work ( but those companies pay to have access to your bank account balances and credit card debt information and use it to screw you harder when you get desperate) and long term it only becomes a brutal debt cycle designed to extract maximum profit from them.
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I am with you on this!
Need to buy a VPN? check F-Droid first. Need any other utility? check F-Droid first, I am ready to suck up a lot of inconvenience with the apps that aren’t polished (Most of the time they are superior). Feeling generous? donate and help make the world a better place.
I sucked up a lot of inconvenience using Linux for last 2 decades or so, so I am well prepared.
Garbage take.
if u rely on GMS so much, have u tried replacing it with microG?
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Write to your representatives.
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Linux phone operating systems aren't ready for daily use yet, but they are being actively developed. https://linmob.net/
I can’t wait for when they are ready!
It’ll be awhile. They’ve been in a development state since the launch of the original pinephone in 2020. And even the pinephone is going to be unavailable in two years as pine64 is ceasing sales on it. Not trying to crap on devs. I bought two pinephones (Braveheart & Mobian bundle). Tested multiple distros and excitedly followed their progress for years. I never had a reliable working phone in that four year span. IMO SailfishOS and Post Market OS are the two most usable mobile distros. SailfishOS now requires an ongoing subscription to use which I don’t like.
liliputing.com/pinephone-pro-linux-smartphone-has…
Sailfish only needs a subscription to get updates, you can use it without a sub.
I use danctnix on my pinephone, which is basically arch. It does the basics, that’s about it. What’s missing is more convenient apps. Most of the stuff is catered to desktop.
Of all the OSes I tried, I liked ubports the best, but it was not updated and not all hardware worked iirc, and suffered the same problem of apps. At least arch gets updated constantly.
Linux based phones have been in development for more than a decade now. I had a Neo Freerunner from OpenMoko in 2008… it kinda worked, but it was not good enough for a daily driver.
What we have now is much better, but there’s still some ways to go before I’m able to ditch my non-linuxy smartphone.
Actively developed sure but Linux phones are a solution looking for a problem. Who wants to run scaled down desktop apps on their phone and who wants a terminal on a phone either? I may be a Linux enthusiast but I want a phone that simply works.
the problem is that google is capable of slurping all of your data and your phone becomes an enhanced avenue for access; the linux phones are the solution to this.
i’m convinced that the “it just works” mantra is the reason why google or apple or microsoft is able to do this sort of asshattery and i can understand why people would want something that simply works.
however, the trade off for this mantra is that you’re giving yourself over to a corporation that not only doesn’ t have your best interest at heart but has proven will happily sell your control for a penny.
i can also understand why someone wouldn’t think that any of this matters and; if you’re lucky; it won’t matter all, but for the rest of us unlucky sob’s (and the people who don’t want to put their faith in luck), linux phones matter.
I use GraphineOS, it already does that but more secure and with apps
i was going to do this too, but none of my functioning androids are supported and i expect google to take another step in disabling alternatives.
I also run GrapheneOS, but I’d love to have a decent true Linux alternative that wasn’t tied to Pixel phones. Maybe I can even get my headphone jack back.
That’s the point of the original post though. Google is starting to make development of these custom ROMs more difficult. If Google ever decided to lock down the bootloader for new Pixels, Graphene would be in a world of hurt. I also use GrapheneOS and love it, but who knows if it will be alive two or three years from now.
My point is its absolutely absurd to yell that AOSP is dead because GOOGLE SPECIFIC files such as device trees and firmware files (that maybe one or two other oems regularly distribute) and just jump ship to a platform arguably over a decade behind. Are there concerns? Yes, but those concerns are absolutely nowhere near close to justify the absolute mess the mobile linux space is in. It would be like if amazon packages starting arriving a day late and we all switched to aliexpress.
They’re actively trying to solve:
I’m baffled that they even bother, given how much people complain about it not being good enough. But I’m glad they do, and I think it’s awesome.
Because they’ve yet to implement basic security features android had a decade ago and the interfaces are clunky, also once again who thought putting desktop apps on Mobile is a good idea?
They’re not a multi-billion dollar company. If you don’t like it, then don’t use it. That’s your choice.
But please stop talking nonsense about them not addressing real problems. Because they are. And they deserve credit for that. Not whining about the imperfections of a work in progress.
You dont have to be a multi billion dollar company to implement security features that exist in aosp, open source features based on freely available software that simply isnt implemented.
No, but it is going to take a considerable amount of time as they don’t have the manpower and resources of a multi billion dollar company.
GraphineOS didn’t start over from scratch for no reason nor did LineageOS so they dont need billions of dollars in funding, if you want to do everything youself then yeah its gonna cost that much.
I believe the UI of most apps could be made to work well with phone display sizes and resolutions.
Well, I do! It’s great when you want to connect, do or automate something there isn’t an app for. For now I sometimes run Termux on Android. Among smartphone users in general I’m probably an edge case, but among Linux users, I must say, using a terminal on the phone doesn’t seem that crazy to me.
It doesn’t matter if they look ok (they still look out of place and feel wrong), the fact is they’re built with keyboards in mind. Hell even on phosh you’ll see keyboard shortcut indicators.
What stops anyone from making new GUIs, maybe even a new framework for doing that, optimised for touchscreens rather than keyboard and mouse?
Maybe I’m just unknowledgeable, but to me that idea doesn’t sound very far-fetched.
Because people keep defending the keyboard and mouse based mobile interfaces and as long as people and devs say its ok there will be no incentive to make proper mobile interfaces.
A single app can have separate interfaces for mobile and desktop. Mobile/Touch interfaces are uncommon right now because linux on mobile isn’t ready, and it is extra work to make a separate GUI.
We arent even close to developers considering implementing the frameworks to potentially start working on implementing that.
A Linux phone doesn’t need to be, and definitely shouldn’t be, a scaled down desktop. There would obviously need to be some purpose built phone apps made, but I am pretty sure the existing Linux phones already do these, they aren’t really breaking new ground here. The whole point would be to have a workable modern phone that isn’t under Google or Apple’s greedy untrustworthy thumbs.
Have you acturally tried Postmarketos or any mobile Linux interface? I have and its just a scaled down Linux desktop.
I have used postmarketOS, and I thought the interface (Plasma Mobile) was OK, but could use some improvements. How long ago did you use it?
Edit: Now that I think about it, I think the last time I tried the Pinephone it was using Manjaro, not postmarketOS. I have used that before though, but you may want to give it another try as it is vastly improved IMO. That being said, the Pinephone itself still kinda sucks from a hardware perspective.
I’ll eventually try it on a pixel 3a
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Yeah, stop using shitty googol.
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What will it take to make a phone that comes with GrapheneOS directly? I have access to some good connections in China, what phone spec could we prototype to have a phone coming with GrapheneOS? I am ready to throw my savings at starting this business. Or should I reach out to GrapheneOS people directly? (Lineage works also)
GrapheneOs is currently discussing some stuff with OEMs but more help wouldn’t hurt I bet.
As per my 30min research, GrapheneOS depends heavily on pixel internals, but I will highjack one of the mastodon posts maybe somebody will spoonfeed me the definitive answer.
I live in a very low cost area, hopefully I will manage to get a nameless phone to run GrapheneOS or LineageOS at low cost, forward most of the income to the open source projects.
It might be too naive but I am giving it a shot.
GrapheneOS is talking to OEMs to create a phone. Up to this point, they’ve only supported Pixels because they’ve had the best security. But with Android 16, Google stopped sharing important files that make it more difficult to continue supporting Pixels. Hence the desire to create their own device.
Thank you! GrapheneOS isn’t an option then, I will wait for their phone.
I guess I could still shoot my shot with LineageOS.
If you wanted to talk to the Graphene folks the best spot seems to be their matrix rooms rather than masto.
matrix.to/#/#general:grapheneos.org
I believe it was also because Pixels were some of the only phones that allow properly relocking the bootloader, but I could be mistaken.
The GrapheneOs team is quite particular about hardware.
I would gladly purchase a phone that came preloaded with LineageOS.
“Better than we have now.” often wins over waiting for perfection.
Not either of those, but have you seen Brax3 phone?
That looks like exactly what I’m looking for in my next phone. Thanks.
Linux phones won’t go anywhere, so you should probably donate to GrapheneOS and hope they have enough in the bank to fork android by the time it’s completely discontinued.
There is microg which can replace GMS. But we really need an alternative, not based on some company’s shit.
I only use Lineage and have done so for years without any problems since CyanogenMod 10.1.
Do remember that it is the choice of the developers to use google services and nothing to do with google.
When you say “Le Chat”, do you mean Mistral AI assistant/chatbot? Its probably stopped working since GPT‑5.
Currently it is not possible to run “Le Chat” ai on a phone without google,
Again its the devopers choice. They could develop a non-google Le Chat.
who on earth needs a chatbot on a phone?
I have never have any problems finding open source alternative apps.
MAPS: Comaps, Organic Maps and MagicEarth, all provide Turn by Turn navigation
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn-by-turn_navigation
I dont use any Banking Apps. Why do you need a banking app? I login to my bank in the comfort and safety of my home.
Lineage:
wiki.lineageos.org/devices/
If you must use google try E/OS. It Uses MicroG and works very well.
microG is a FLOSS implementation of Google play services
doc.e.foundation
I mostly agree with what you’re saying. But it’s really easy to make an argument for why an alternative works perfectly when you say “you don’t actually need that” every time something comes up that doesn’t work.
With a web browser and user agent spoofing, that’s basically how it works. I don’t want any Facebook/Meta apps on my phone, so I use a desktop Google Chrome rule for all Meta URLs in my browser and user the web versions. Mobile is slowly taking over, but most things have a web version.
Unfortunately, that doesn’t work for everything. The Quest 3 requires an Android or iOS device to set up. At least an old cell phone on a throwaway Google account works for most of these, since they don’t need to be used often.
I highly reccomend comaps which has turn-by-turn directions and doesn’t require Google services.
CoMaps is quite nice.
There are also still companies selling navigation devices that mount in a car windshield, assuming the car doesn’t already have one built in.
Pro tip - those navigation devices also often have an accident camera that records if it feels an impact - which is a good idea anyway.
Wow, supports Android Auto too!
Edit: Says it supports Android Auto, to be clear - not tested by me, and issue(s) reported below.
You sure about this? I haven’t been able to get it, or any other maps app on GrapheneOS, to play nice with Android Auto.
Not at all, no! Just going off the support article that says it does. Only just installed it, will try it out with my car this weekend at the latest.
Please respond back if you can get it to work, navigation has always been a big sticking point with using GrapheneOS.
Will do, I’m also running stock on a Find N5 though, so not apples to apples with Graphene by any means.
I run GrapheneOS and organic maps was working fine with android auto. You have to enter in developer options to allow third party apps tho. I was using it in a restricted profile with only proprietary apps (like banking apps). Comaps is a fork of organic maps so it should work too.
Were you running the version on Google Play or the one from f-droid? I have a suspicion that the Google Play version has some extra sliminess that allows it to work with Android Auto.
Yes I was running the Google Play version. AFAIK it doesn’t work with the version from FOSS platforms unfortunately. It was a few month ago. I got tired of it and ditched it altogether. I find that a phone holder does the job with much less hassle.
I have the FOSS version installed and I ended up buying a phone holder as well. Music playing apps can with with AA, but it looks like navigation doesn’t unless there is some trick I haven’t figured out.
transit routing still doesn’t work iirc, though gtfs stuff is in development
But location services dont work without play services.
GPS works without play services but if you want more accurate location then you can turn this on.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/pictrs/image/4fbb6c47-2e88-4a3c-92d0-296ab5b3d041.webp">
It never worked for me :(
I’m not sure what the point of the post is? Is it to share frustration? Searching for a solution? Sorry, I may be not good at inferring this, but I don’t get it.
IF you are in solution-finding mode, then there are a few things that you can do.
Can you elaborate which banks those were? Or you if there is a curated list of banks that work on custom ROMs?
Dutch banks working without google are: BUNQ and ASN Bank (EDIT: and Triodos).
BUNQ has the built-in QR scanning functionality broken (the one for iDEAL, if you’re living in NL you know), but that’s acceptable because it works to scan the QR in Binary Eye, which in turn opens the bunq app and the payment can be made easily.
ASN just works, all features that I’ve tried I think. (This one is only in Dutch though.)
Banks that I’ve tried few years ago and they didn’t work: ING, ABN AMRO, Rabonbank, Tridos, possibly few others that I forgot.
Also, lately I’ve started using some of those “international” ones, not so focused on NL. I’ve found that Wise (pure web, haven’t even tried their app) and Revolut (app) seem to work well on my de-googlified phone. Hope that helps!
EDIT: re-worded the first line of my message to be indexable by search engines, because that may be useful for future readers.
Thanks! I’m on ING now and every time i look it up for ING i get conflicting answers, Probably because it differs for each country they operate in (and people don’t always specify). I’ll look into the other ones.
I’ve re-tried ING now, the app starts fine and the first steps to create an account are fine (I went up to the phone number and email). However, IIRC they used to break on further steps such as ABN AMRO breaking when wanting to scan my ID card for verification. But then again, you may not need it if you already passed that verification. Anyway, just letting you know if you’re curios; I’m aborting here.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/31471cec-fe19-4448-a026-490077d662f1.png">
(And noteworthy that ING has a million of different apps)
Thanks for the useful feedback.
Wise requires me to use the app as 2FA in order to log into their web interface. How do you log in without the app?
You can use andOTP if you want a FOSS app on Android. If you’re a hardcore no-Android-at-all user (or considering), you can use KeePassXC on the desktop. This kind of defeats the purpose of 2FA, but on the other hand people with KeePassXC tend to have strong passwords due to ease of their maintenance, so you don’t need 2FA as much to begin with.
TL&DR; use andOTP on Android or KeePassXC on Linux Desktop.
What puzzled me was that I had no option to input a TOTP. The website would only send me a notification through the Wise app to allow the login.
I have just discovered that the waiting screen on the website had a small, clickable text ‘Did not receive a notification?’ that leads to other options, including TOTP. That’s so much better!
Thank you, I would never have discovered this if you had not said that this was possible.
Hi, I can add that Triodos works like a charm for me on a completely ungoogled /e/os And shoutout to @vas for actually telling banks and presumably other institutions that they need to be platform neutral or lose their custom. That’s my preferred way out of this mess. Goog luck ungoogling, everyone
Good to know! I was really eyeing Triodos back in the day, due to what looked like a good ethical stance, but it didn’t work out at the time. Nice that they’ve fixed it! (I’ve updated my message above as well to include the bank.)
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I doubt they will put any pressure. EU decided to rely on GMS for their upcoming Digital ID app. While they claim they want to switch to open source alternatives of big tech services, they designed their app so that it forces EU citizens to either comply with Google’s ToS, or Apple’s.
Related discussion: github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/…/18
Furthermore, they do not seem particularly open to criticism on this subject…
<img alt="" src="https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/d94e1b96-802d-440e-b29d-b1434d896d0e.jpeg">
if you could just have read one more update on that issue, you would’ve seen that it is moved to a discussion post now
Well spotted, my bad!
The link the new discussion is here: github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/…/19
The app is reference implementation, not supposed to be used.
Damn we are stupid in the EU!
What do we want: digital sovereignty
When do we want it: ehrm… Well… We have some things in pipeline and it is really hard…
They know that NSA is directly spying on us and they don’t care
Keep in mind GMS does not need to run as a system app. On GrapheneOS it does not.
At least for me only about 15% of my apps need GMS and I only run GMS in my private space which most of the time I lock.
So yes I do not like needing GMS but it is not so doom and gloom.
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Does what work? If you mean GMS sandboxing, that is ROM specific. Up to what the ROM supplier does.
Why would one need another ROM. GrapheneOS is one of the best. So is Google hardware in terms of lifetime cost, capability, and security. What other supplier gives 7 year support?
Generally with android it is best to choose the ROM and then the best hardware for it anyway. The best ROMs often have limited hardware support. There are not that many reasonable ROMs anyway. Nor are there many hardware choices that aupport most ROMs fully.
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Google phones are pretty widely available in many countries not just the US. But sure good point, there are many exceptions too.
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The big deal is how long a phone gets updates. If you divide Pixel a-series pricing by the 7 years of support, they are not that expensive.
What is expensive is buying a new phone everytime they go out of support. My old LG had maybe 1 year of updates when I got it years ago and it was a $250 phone. Still ran it for 6 years but most of that time had no updates which is not great.
My point is cost depends on how you measure it.
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You may or may not have 7 years of support as the binary blobs are only updated for a limited period and this is often a lot less then 7 years.
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GrapheneOS gives several features not in other ROMS at the cost of requiring in support Pixels. These include full update support including binary blobs, locked boot loader, and device attestation support to the extent possible, It prorities security over most other things including lomg multi-device support which of course would be nice.
Yeah, this is a problem. I attempted to switch to GrapheneOS just a month ago and had to roll back to stock Android. One of my banking apps worked, but 3 others didn’t. My 2FA app didn’t work. I stopped receiving important texts as they were previously RCS and that refused to validate no matter what I did.
Google has made it extremely hard to degoogle.
Why not just access your financial institutions in a web browser?
That was an inconvenience, but one I could make if it was the only issue. It was more the total accumulation of things. My 2FA app pulling support for “unsigned” operating systems coupled with missing work texts due to RCS failure were the main straws to break the camel’s back. Having to find an alternative and then manually change all 2FA was almost a deal breaker in itself. That played into using a web browser for my financial institution access.
Missing texts is definitely a deal breaker. I hate how RCS was championed as the “open” protocol and yet only google and samsung are able to implement it… we were lied to. Or i feel lied to idk i thought it was an open knowledge spec when we were hearing about forcing apple to support it.
There is always a trade-off with privacy and security. It’s totally okay to decide you prefer convenience over privacy.
If you wanted to give it another shot:
That was why I wanted to move to GrapheneOS, I could selectively use Google services or apps for convenience while still being more secure than stock Android. I’ll have to plan my next attempt out instead of Yolo and adapt, lol.
I do plan to migrate to a new 2FA, but Authy made that hard by getting rid of their desktop app so you can’t port and have to go to each service and manually sign up a new app one by one. I tend to boycott services when they get that anticonsumer/anticompetitive out of principle.
Work texts go to the work phone. Work 2FA also on work phone. I use a hardware TAN generator for web banking.
My work 2FA is physical token based, it is my personal 2FA that causing me problems. Email and text authentication is insecure enough that I try and use a software authenticator whenever possible.
Great point about the work phone. I don’t want a work phone as I don’t have any desire to be reachable 24/7 outside of the rotating week I’m on call, but if I was expected to have email and Teams and everything on my phone I would definitely require one. Thankfully my work texts are all for team updates, heads up about issues, scheduling matters, etc, but I still consider those to be important while not riding to a separate work phone
Convenience and security probably.
The website version of a lot of banks require you login (each time) with a customer numer and then random letters from your password and or pin, which takes forever so I never bother unless I need the website.
Im (more) paranoid whenever I use a sensitive website. Quadruple checking the domain name, am i on https (even tho i use no-http and have a password manager). It’s a bit more relaxing using an app.
Theres probably some security downsides (other than user error), but a modern banking site shouldn’t suffer much since they invest heavily in locking down their shtuff.
Just remember that there are no nice reasons why they are working this hard to keep your phone captive.
We can argue about how bad it will get, but there’s only worse things coming from this effort.
Oh, totally, which is why I am working towards as much decoupling as possible. I plan to replace my Nest gear with Ubiquity for cameras and stuff as I can afford it, and eventually set up my own offline automation server. This can only end badly for consumers.
The collusion between services like Authy and Google indicates this to me, but it’s also effective and means I have to pivot in slower degrees. I am encountering similar issues moving to Linux from Windows, so this is a full Silicone Valley issue.
With respect to 2FA, if you want to be more ready for any future next time, you could migrate to an open-source TOTP app. E.g. andOTP. I use this one, it’s fine. The underlying standards don’t change in decades, so you can choose any compatible client and be without trouble for years and years. And it may be good to do in any case, googlified phone or not. Good apps also tend to provide password-protected backups.
I have no knowledge about RCS though, never used it so can’t tell. Otherwise GrapheneOS user for ~2 years, before that LineageOS, before that CopperheadOS for another few years.
Your absolutely right and I will be moving to an open source TOTP solution going forward, it just sucks that great services keep getting enshitified and we have to keep moving to better pastures. LastPass to Bitwarden, now Authy to something else.
Same issue, I just did web browser instead
I suggest just exporting and using a different 2FA app, especially an open source one like Aegis
RCS on GrapheneOS is very finicky and requires using AppOps to enable
READ_DEVICE_IDENTIFIERS, and you have to let carrier services and google messages have more permissions to work. You also might have to deregister your previous phone to use the number (i.e. my old iPhone still had my number in the settings, had to remove it). There’s a very long GrapheneOS thread about it, but the link should be the solution.Authy dropped their desktop app and killed the ability to export. I will have to start from scratch, but I definitely plan to.
I spent a week with that discussion your linked plus several other posts, I just couldn’t get it working. I might have better luck next time I try it though.
Yeah, I got fucked by Authy too and did it the hard way last year.
The RCS forum post was very tedious and I came back a few months later cause RCS broke, but it’s been good for almost a year now so I think I got it. Some extra details to note are your carrier, deregistring old phones, verifying app permissions, and just waiting a week or so.
I totally understand your frustration though, as I went through it 😅
EDIT: Do not mention the fickle one, or you shall foolishly anger the RCS gods and curse your fate like I have done. (Translation: the fucker stopped working this week)
Le Chat is just a frontend for Mistral. There are a ton of free web UIs one can use for chat instead, like (ironically) Google AI Studio, Deepseek, Z AI. Or openrouter if you’re willing to pay for a bit of privacy. Or kobold lite. Or your own self hosted Open Web UI instance.
Would “containerizing” GMS in Android ever be possible? Like it’s running in a docker instance, almost.
Graphene OS does something similar. It sandboxes GMS like any other app
Then why don’t GMS apps work?
GMS apps work fine. The only ones that don’t work are ones that act invasively enough to notice they are sandboxed and disable themselves.
Mostly bank apps. Which is irritating, since they all have mobile friendly websites that work fine without needing to know my location and everything else about my phone.
What I was envisioning was a more “open” sandbox that feels like an entire (but barebones) phone, an imprecise location, things like that. But with the rest of the phone secretly shut out.
That’s a pretty good description of what GrapheneOS does with the sandboxed Google services.
I have found that the only apps that don’t work well with Samdboxed Google services are ones that work hard to invasively probe their runtime environment.
Thwy usually fall into these three categories:
We are in war with big tech, why would anyone think they would just let us win without a fight.
EU won’t be too friendly either given the nature of their recent identification app. You should still write to your legislators, but they’re a mostly tech-illiterate bunch, so expect it to be a low ROI activity.
Really do consider donating to projects like GrapheneOS. The GrapheneOS team are a very passionate and clever group, and I’d like to think that they can at least give us something to work with, even if Google completely cuts the cord. Hopefully they can also secure an additional revenue stream once they release their own phone.
If it really does all fall through and there’s no deGoogled way to run Android apps, I’ll keep a separate phone, preferably with a removable battery, with regular Android just to host the proprietary apps. Treat it as a work phone, i.e. power off when not needed, don’t connect to my main home network, don’t do anything that doesn’t need to be done on it. Proprietary apps only make up a small fraction of my mobile workflow, so everything else stays on another phone that respects my privacy.
Y'all keep saying this.... These people are not stupid, they are corrupt. Start calling spade a spade. You are giving them something to hide behind jfc.
I am thinking a tablet with Linux and a hotspot rather than phone number. Maybe supplement with a dumb phone in a Faraday bag for your phone, Iike on Swisscows.
It is only slightly on topic, but I’d like to give a hateful shout out to Ticketmaster/Live Nation’s new “mobile only” ticketed events that require you to have an iPhone or fully Google blessed Android phone. They do not allow you to use a QR code or printed ticket anymore, only their app with a constantly changing bare code or Google wallet (unsure of the IOS experience).
I am going to a concert this weekend and I either have to dig up some old phone that can work with this app or sell my tickets.
Someone recently crack their shit code. Can use offline app after extract secret once. Will link once find.
Edit: conduition.io/coding/ticketmaster/ app (javascript) github.com/conduition/ticketgimp
Thanks, that might be a handy workaround.
Boop, source found.
Thanks!
I’ve never had an issue loading my tickets in the browser.
Then you weren’t at one of the new “mobile only” ticket events. help.ticketmaster.com/…/9786597785617-How-do-I-us…
Just go to the box office when you get there and present an ID that matches the name the tickets were purchased under. Depending on the venue, they will either print your ticket or text you a link that opens a page in your browser that can be scanned.
Everything I’ve read is that they only offer accommodations to people during time of purchase, and even then you’re basically at the mercy of the venue. I’m going to call them and see what I can do, but I don’t have high hopes.
I stopped going. Fuck it. Not giving in to their bullshit.
That’s how I’m feeling I will go after this concert since they already have my money.
It was the fees for me. Their CEO needs to be Luigi’d for leading a parasitic company that has made so many music venues go under.
The local folks probably deserve tye attendance more anyway. So many nepo babies…
I’ve been quietly boycotting them for over 13 years now, shortly after online scalpers started having their field day with their sites. It sucks not being able to go to any major shows but I have made myself compromise by going to small local shows only and it hasn’t been that bad.
Everyone votes with their wallets, so as long as people keep paying, they’ll keep making us jump through more and more hoops.
So messed up that they too are the scalpers. A band I liked put pressure on them and managed to catch them in their bullshit, but that is rare.
Of the largest android sellers, only samsung requires gplay. Xiaomi, vivo, oppo, realme, honor, are all chinese companies that require non-bundled google play for their domestic (and maybe other countries?) releases. Google can’t alienate these sellers, and if they did, all of these companies would create their own AOSP fork (or just switch to HarmonyOS)
I recently bought a xiaomi android tablet that doesn’t have google play services luckily.
If the goal is too swap one parasite for another, this is a valid strategy BUT
Custom ROM is the only proper solution, ideally GrapheneOS, if you actually care about security and privacy.
Xiaomi is terrible when it comes to locked bootloaders unfortunately.
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I use Shelter to enable the work profile. It permits to copy apps between standard and work profile. So it is possible to have google services (with an account set I mean) in the work profile.
Apps like for Banks can’t be copied though. But most of the others can.
Maps?
Use OsmAnd and MagicEarth? I’ve been using it for years now. Works fine.
Also Theres comaps
I enjoy Organic Maps.
Comaps is the fork, we moved away from organic maps. You will find basically the same experience.
Comaps has been awesome for me
Run as many open source apps as you can is about the best option. Also, OSMAND does provide turn-by-turn directions.
What it does not do well is street addresses, so at times you may find that you have to use the GPS coordinates of the place you are going to in order to get directions.
It’s never had any trouble with street addresses for me. It’s using open street map so if there are addresses that aren’t right you can submit changes.
Where it has trouble for me is on long trips over great distances. If you ask it to route a 6-hour trip to another state through a couple of metropolitan areas It has a pretty good chance of sending you a non-optimal route.
I’ve found that it can get you to businesses fairly well. where I have seen failures is navigating to an individual’s home address. What you can do is you can get the nearby intersection of two roads fairly easily, but the home address is much more difficult.
Maybe postmarketOS?
You can stop using Google and Apple… It’s that simple. But it seems that you, like many other, want their cake and eat it too…
Sure but what’s a viable alternative for normies? It would be simple if a viable alternative existed. For normies, I reiterate.
It’s to do the grass root movement, and get enough to demand it, for a provider to feel the need to expand their customer base that way…
Normies don’t care about that. They care about WhatsApp, Instagram and tiktoks.
The normie is the battle ground.
They need better info and they need to be hurt by corpos for change to heppen.
Uk age verification should see a bump in freedom enjoyer ranks
Until they don’t… and please don’t call then normies, when they really are manipulated…
Normie is not an insult or derogatory. It just means “normal person”, who is usually not very tech savy.
Most Normies don’t care about privacy. They know, accept and are ok with their data being collected and sold in “free” services.
I don’t agree. Most people I know, just don’t know how it should be different…
Some countries allow the corpos to lock your device down when you delete it, and they have collaborated with the providers to disallow Open Source OS alternatives like Lineage. The only way I know of is to get a Pixel, which is still owned by Google, and then I think only one provider allows the after market OS to function on network. For those of us entering a dictatorship gov, it really sucks.
Well, then there’s a market for someone to crack…
If only there was someone that could afford as much lobbying as Google and Apple, we would have another parasite that was just as bad. Lets just get CB radios. Maybe morse code. God, what a shit show. This country is so fucked.
I believe it depends more on people-power, than on their wealth. That’s why they spend so much money on lobbying - it’s a testament to how scared they are.
I dont know if that indicates that theyre scared, its just part of the maintenance cost of their empires
You don’t spend money on something that you don’t get profit from. That’s just plain logic. They know, if they don’t keep spending money here, some politician would end their monopoly.
Of course. Im just saying i dont believe theyre scared because they know they will continue to have more than enough money for lobbying. Its probably very cheap in comparison to what they get out if it. Any business has necessary maintenance costs
“Any business has necessary maintenance costs”… Sure, but not every firm pays to manipulate and bribe politicians, to keep a monopoly.
Right, not every firm is a monopoly. Bribing politicians is a necessary maintenance cost of keeping a monopoly. We agree.
So, Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Adobe and so forth, is not monopolies?
Why? You think they don’t do lobbying? Their cartels do constitute monopolies in my view
So you think they are monopolies… Good - that’s what they are.
Yes :)
It’s different for every one, but for me it would mean, I can’t use Microsoft authenticator, so I can’t do my job anymore, as it is required to access my mail, teams, files, logging worked hours, etc etc.
I can’t use any of my bank apps anymore, I can’t use my phone anymore for paying in a store or checking in public transportation.
And many more apps that would stop working.
Tell your employer to provide you a corpo phone.
You shouldn't be using personal device for anything related to your job imho
I do freelance work, so they would just tell me to get it myself. But I really don’t want to have multiple phones. In don’t use teams or mail on my phone anyway, only the authenticator apps (we have multiple).
That's fair.
Quite a comfortable way to do this is with grapheneOS. That really gives you a choice. Can’t say much about each and every app, how they run. Although most of my usage hasn’t changed much with grapheneOS as I changed from gsm-free custom ROMs. Works quite good with a nextcloud.
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How it’s possible to stop using google or apple? By doing it…
You have accurately identified a major part of the problem. Many people are unwilling to change their habits, or don’t have the patience to learn new tools.
The other element though is time, many people don’t have the time to stop and learn. Especially when a problem like privacy is a lot less immediate than hunger or healthcare.
But the frustration among people are also growing, and that should be used/channeled to make a change.
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So, do enlighten me, beside the fact that you are obviously addicted to the smartphone, how will your life be worse without privacy?
PS. Does anyone chase something for the sake of something else? That sounded a little silly…
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For banking, I use the website instead of the application. I have very few non-open-source applications left on my phone.
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I was upset about Duo authenticator when I found out someone made a workaround that lets you export the secrets to a normal totp app. I can only hope you have some project like that for your situation
Real question is
Why can’t a rooted android fake play services?
I thought that was the reason for the cloned app that runs outside the Insular sandbox. I am dumb on the subject and making assumptions though.
Afaik this is possible, but the banking apps don’t like rooting either. No achievement there.
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idk, maybe the app wants to check if it runs on normal phone hardware, not some reverse engineering virtualization? Or something like: if the OS is verified and unrooted, no secrets get out?
Funny thing is I can use banking grapheneOS phone and the main Health insurance app, but not the Health Insurance TeleDoc-App. Personally I think apps that need GSM or at least be officially google boot verified are apps made by lazy morons, but that’s just a guess.
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Apps check if Google says this device is stock and original. Booting alternative OSes is allowed but frowned upon. And of course doesn’t get a Google approval signature. Something like that. Basically programmers not wanting to make the checking themselves and relying on Google to tell them what devices are “secure”.
If they really had interest in stopping you they could definitely stop you. That’s the direction they’re heading with all of these apps that are doing the integrity check. It’s just a matter of time that it’ll take for them to do it gradually enough not to make everything backward compatible explode.
Microg and stuff like that are probably on their way out within the next few generations.
When postmarket finally manages to reverse engineer the modems and the voice and support something with a half decent camera I’ll readily leave the ecosystem.
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Mainline linux on mobile is solving this problem as we speak: postmarketos.org
I expect a full collapse of the Google Android behemoth about the same time we get Half Life 3.
i reaaallyyy want this project to be amazing. We need a lot more device support though for that to happen.
Realistically, change your approach to how you use your phone.
A majority of apps are not actually apps. They are a web app packaged in an apk so they can get elevated permissions and more data. Dont download apps, instead just install them from your browser as the web app they are. This is far more secure and far less invasive as generally a web app is containerized, at least thats my understanding in regards to firefox.
Instead of google maps, explore the world of open source navigation apps. Osmand has worked great for me, and tends to provide better info so im not panic merging at the last second. Theres a lot of them out there, and google maps has stagnated for so long that many of them are caught up in features. While its not open source, ive sesn a lot of people praise Magic Earth as well.
Buy phones on the premise of being allowed to use a custom rom. As much as i dont want a pixel because it is google, graphene os is battle tested and much more secure than stock android. But theres also lineage OS, eOS, and a few others out there.
If you need google play services, containerize it. I keep all apps i dont want having special permissions on a work profile. Funnily, i also keep my work apps on that profile, so if google wants my works data then they can handle the lawsuit if something bad happens lol.
I think a lot of people have forgotten that phones are tiny computers. The only real difference is the cell network, but we already have devices that can use those networks that arent phones, so it isnt an exclusive feature to phones. Android can be forked, but also we can emulate android on linux and there are already linux phones out there. If we grow the linux space for phones, then we effectively lose nothing of value while gaining increased freedom. For now, change how you use your phone, and only download apps if you have no other choice.
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Some people say you can use a de-Googled Chromium browser to enjoy the fruits of Chrome without supporting Google’s ad business. I say just use Firefox.
By the same token, when some people say to buy an Android phone and deal with CFW, I say just get an iPhone.
I mean either way, Google gets your money and you contribute to Google’s market share by buying one. Not using Google Play Services as an individual does not hurt them nearly as much as their efforts to keep you from doing so implies it does.
Of course, switching phones can be costly, but if you’re in the market for a new one, I would say if you’re going to pay roughly the same price, let it be the more private one, albeit the one that is further from open source. I mean it runs iOS, which is a stripped down version of macOS, which is UNIX certified, but you can’t run a few apps that Apple doesn’t approve of. Fortnite is back and emulators are back though, so a lot of bases are covered.
That said… the keyboard sucks. Sometimes if I’m gonna be typing (e.g. using Lemmy), I’ll actually turn on my old Galaxy S10, just to use Gboard (which is on iOS but sucks there). I like my 16PM for a lot of things, but typing isn’t one of them.
So yes. You can stop rewarding Google’s bad behavior by not buying their phones. Draw a hard line between your personal data and their servers. But in doing so, consider getting in bed with a different monster rather than “the devil you know.” It’s not an easy decision. And, as a guy who’s been mainly on iPhone for almost 10 years… I kinda want a Pixel. Maybe not the newest one, but I mean, I’m using a 6-year-old Galaxy phone and it’s fine. I like both platforms. Both have their strengths. But I personally trust Apple more than Google. To each their own though.