GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
on 29 Jun 2024 09:14
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As one person on Mastodon said, “AI is a toxic industry created by toxic people with toxic ideals”.
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip
on 29 Jun 2024 23:05
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I wouldn’t go that far. As it turns out AI is a buzz word and buzz words have little meaning
GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
on 30 Jun 2024 06:27
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Yea I thought about that too. But apparently some people find “AI” useful.
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip
on 30 Jun 2024 06:38
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I find LLMs very useful
GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
on 30 Jun 2024 06:54
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Too much of an environmental impact for the usefulness imo.
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip
on 30 Jun 2024 07:45
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I don’t care. They are really helpful for a many different tasks. It doesn’t pull that much power to run locally on my machine.
GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
on 30 Jun 2024 08:04
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Mister/miss, LLMs that can run locally are fine. It’s the infrastructure and the large scale of commercial cloud LLMs that create some issues. You have to read some researches on this topic.
Rekorse@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 30 Jun 2024 15:20
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“See I like AI because I’m selfish. Also those bad things are in the past, I’m using an ethical AI system now! But also, who gives a fuck because I only care about myself!”
Yeah you get it guy! Maybe you can be Trumps secretary of technology!
nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz
on 30 Jun 2024 10:20
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If an LLM can save me 30 minutes writing nice emails and responses and help me brainstorm, debug, or elucidate my thoughts then it is very useful.
Rekorse@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 30 Jun 2024 15:19
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You really put 30 minutes of your own time above all of downsides this has for the rest of us who don’t have a use for it (most of the world)?
nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz
on 30 Jun 2024 21:08
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What downsides are there?
Rekorse@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 30 Jun 2024 21:18
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All of the resources and energy spent to get you this product you like. You can’t discount what it took to create something just because the final product is small and efficient. Take a look at the manufacturing footprint of nearly all complex hardware.
I’m not saying you created the AI but you are one of its supporters, without which there would be no AI.
If this was all just pitched as developing a new plain English coding language, I think the hype following it would be far more appropriate, but then the funding wouldn’t follow to support the massive development costs of AI.
Its become a circle of hype chasing money chasing hype.
Its not you that is the problem so to speak though, its the collective “you’s” who think the same way.
nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz
on 02 Jul 2024 08:33
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I’m not discounting it. Improving productivity for office workers by 1% across the world is a massive amount
The power used to train the AI is alot, but after that using the AI uses a lot less electricity, if an AI spikes my gpu by 10 seconds to type something that would have taken me 30 minutes, I’ve saved on electricity:
SuckMyWang@lemmy.world
on 29 Jun 2024 09:29
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Cool so we can just make up our own rules now. Well, all Microsoft products are freeware now because the same reason this guy
jmcs@discuss.tchncs.de
on 29 Jun 2024 09:55
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Windows XP code was leaked 2 years ago, so it’s freeware according to this idi… stable genius .
electro1@infosec.pub
on 30 Jun 2024 01:08
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Ok… so from now on … when I see a “repackaged” Microsoft product that for some reason… which I don’t care to know… doesn’t ask for a payment… I can use it without restrictions ?!! that’s really nice of you Microsoft … thank you.
Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc
on 29 Jun 2024 09:42
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It’s freeware until someone else take m$ content without paying them, then it’s copyright infringement.
themurphy@lemmy.ml
on 29 Jun 2024 09:48
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Fair, then everything I can find on the Internet must be freeware too. Set the sails, matey!
SlopppyEngineer@lemmy.world
on 29 Jun 2024 12:40
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No officer, this is not a pirated movie. It’s generated by an AI model I created and trained with data from the internet and the fact that it’s 99% identical to an existing movie is irrelevant.
Agathon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 29 Jun 2024 12:56
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my AI is so good, it generated one that’s 100% identical
plus my AI uses less than 99% of the electricity of Microsoft’s
Fermion@feddit.nl
on 29 Jun 2024 15:27
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Can I just call lossy compression AI and use this as a defense?
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip
on 29 Jun 2024 23:04
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The definition is being changed by Microsoft
EnderMB@lemmy.world
on 29 Jun 2024 10:33
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I’m fine with that, but let’s put some rules against this.
Any AI models should be able to determine the source of their data to a defined level of accuracy.
There should be a well-defined way to block data from being used by AI. If one of these ways (e.g. robots.txt) has been breached, the model has to be rebuilt without the data, and reparations made to the content owners.
A neural network is basically nothing more than a set of weights. If one word makes a weight go up by 0.0001 and then another word makes it go down by 0.0001, and you do that billions of times for billions of weights, how do you determine what in the data created those weights? Every single thing that’s in the training data had some kind of effect on everything else.
It’s like combining billions of buckets of water together in a pool and then taking out 1 cup from that and trying to figure out which buckets contributed to that cup. It doesn’t make any sense.
EnderMB@lemmy.world
on 29 Jun 2024 16:34
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Respectfully, I worked for Alexa AI on compositional ML, and we were largely able to do exactly this with customer utterances, so to say it is impossible is simply not true. Many companies have to have some degree of ability to remove troublesome data, and while tracing data inside a model is rather difficult (historically it would be done during the building of datasets or measured at evaluation time) it’s definitely something that most big tech companies will do.
Sorry, I misinterpreted what you meant. You said “any AI models” so I thought you were talking about the model itself should somehow know where the data came from. Obviously the companies training the models can catalog their data sources.
But besides that, if you work on AI you should know better than anyone that removing training data is counter to the goal of fixing overfitting. You need more data to make the model more generalized. All you’d be doing is making it more likely to reproduce existing material because it has less to work off of. That’s worse for everyone.
socphoenix@midwest.social
on 29 Jun 2024 16:39
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It’s not impossible lol. All a company would need to do is keep track of where they were getting content. If I use a script to download as much of the internet as possible and end up with a bunch of copyrighted content I could still get in trouble, hell there was even a guy arrested for downloading jstor without authorization.. Stop letting these guys get away with crimes just because you like the idea of the end product
Yeah, but anything you create automatically has a copyright, so for example this comment is not in the public domain. Its use is limited to the context I am using it in; that is, I expect it to be copied for federation purposes, but I wouldn’t say that AI is covered in this context, just genuine readership, moderation, and bots that are ‘part of the community’.
At least that’s the EU stance afaik. Like if I saw this comment on a billboard somewhere I’d see that as a clear breach of copyright and even privacy.
Rekorse@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 30 Jun 2024 15:23
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Thats a great way to put it in a simple way: its wrong to use other peoples content for things they did not expect they would be.
Well, it’s one thing to say an ‘artificial agent’ looks at someone’s work on deviant art and learns from it. It’s another to use that to make money, as I personally can’t imagine many of the posters would have been on board with that.
FuCensorship@lemmy.today
on 29 Jun 2024 13:40
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JCreazy@midwest.social
on 29 Jun 2024 14:06
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You heard it here folks. Microsoft says if you find something online, it’s free.
toastal@lemmy.ml
on 30 Jun 2024 07:11
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Which is why I boycott as hard as I can every service this evil corporation provides (migrate your MS GitHub project away now so I can delete this account too)
Rekorse@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 30 Jun 2024 15:15
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Microsoft is in a death spiral.
Even my coworkers who are complete idiots with technology, who actively sabotage themselves every time they touch any piece of hardware and software, have soured entirely on nearly every Microsoft product across the board.
Its funny how quickly people change their minds when they dont understand the technology on a deeper level. Its just: “this is frustrating now I hate it” and no further thought.
lindworm@chaos.social
on 30 Jun 2024 19:12
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@Rekorse@toastal They just reach the same point as professionals, only 10 years later (+/- 2 years)
Bakkoda@sh.itjust.works
on 01 Jul 2024 04:05
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Always was.
prex@aussie.zone
on 29 Jun 2024 14:52
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From the article:
Also, in 2022, several unidentified developers sued OpenAI and GitHub based on claims that the organizations used publicly posted programming code to train generative models in violation of software licensing terms
They can argue about it not being a copy all they want. If there is a single GPL licenced line of code scraped then anything they produce is a derivative work & must be licenced GPL.
nice.
unwarlikeExtortion@lemmy.ml
on 30 Jun 2024 11:13
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The only way I can see them weaseling out of this is by keeping the program running the model made in-house and proprietary while releasing the model in a format unusable without the base (proprietary) program. But maybe the GPL forbids such obfuscstion efforts (I don’t know, I haven’t studied it in detail)
bitfucker@programming.dev
on 01 Jul 2024 04:11
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GPL v2 don’t, which lead to tivoization. But Linus himself didn’t agree with that standing.
threeganzi@sh.itjust.works
on 30 Jun 2024 12:51
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I’ll play the uniformed devils advocate here:
Is the GPL license enforceable?
And if so, I assume “derivative” will still subjective to some degree. Where do we draw the line between derivative and non-derivative?
I’m torn about my personal opinion about copyrights and software licensing in general. I think the main problem is the huge power imbalance between people and corporations, not so much the fact a company analyzed a bunch of available data to solve programming problems.
They don’t copy the data and sell it verbatim to others which would be a legal issue and in my mind also a moral issue, as they don’t add any additional value.
2: Normally derivative works are patched or modified versions of the original. I think the common English meaning would apply & chatGPT et al are fucked. I doubt there is a precedent for this yet.
I went into a smidge more detail over on my Mastodon last night, but my response is summed up as “WTAF? No! Freeware is an explicit license, as anyone from the BBS days will recall.”
Would you mind sharing a link to it here if it’s not any trouble? (Or your handle if that’s easier for you) I’m always looking for new stuff to check out and new people to follow on Mastodon
jqubed@lemmy.world
on 29 Jun 2024 17:56
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I look forward to the lawsuits that will ultimately cost this man his job.
ssm@lemmy.sdf.org
on 29 Jun 2024 18:07
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I’d like to see this “CEO of AI” stand on the same ground as the CEO of Sex
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip
on 29 Jun 2024 23:02
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So Windows XP source code leak is now freeware?
xilliah@beehaw.org
on 29 Jun 2024 23:16
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toastal@lemmy.ml
on 30 Jun 2024 07:14
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The social contract? Tf. The social contract still required attribution in almost all cases for creative work unless explicitlf stated otherwise—especially in the case of comercial products like ChatGPT—so I don’t know where this joker is getting his ideas.
Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml
on 30 Jun 2024 10:42
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Sure thing…now GPL/Creative Commons all your code involved in any way for your models, documentation, parameters, data sets, and allow full unlimited integration and modification by any parties to any portion of it.
winterayars@sh.itjust.works
on 30 Jun 2024 18:52
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Man it’s crazy how these fuckers basically get to ignore copyright law whenever it’s inconvenient to them but if you have one too many Windows machines provisioned they’ll send the Spanish Inquisition after you.
deadcatbounce@reddthat.com
on 17 Oct 2024 05:03
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Friends don’t let Friends use Microsoft products. If you’re using Windows you’re finding this awful organisation. Shame on you.
threaded - newest
As one person on Mastodon said, “AI is a toxic industry created by toxic people with toxic ideals”.
I wouldn’t go that far. As it turns out AI is a buzz word and buzz words have little meaning
Yea I thought about that too. But apparently some people find “AI” useful.
I find LLMs very useful
Too much of an environmental impact for the usefulness imo.
I don’t care. They are really helpful for a many different tasks. It doesn’t pull that much power to run locally on my machine.
Mister/miss, LLMs that can run locally are fine. It’s the infrastructure and the large scale of commercial cloud LLMs that create some issues. You have to read some researches on this topic.
“See I like AI because I’m selfish. Also those bad things are in the past, I’m using an ethical AI system now! But also, who gives a fuck because I only care about myself!”
Yeah you get it guy! Maybe you can be Trumps secretary of technology!
If an LLM can save me 30 minutes writing nice emails and responses and help me brainstorm, debug, or elucidate my thoughts then it is very useful.
You really put 30 minutes of your own time above all of downsides this has for the rest of us who don’t have a use for it (most of the world)?
What downsides are there?
All of the resources and energy spent to get you this product you like. You can’t discount what it took to create something just because the final product is small and efficient. Take a look at the manufacturing footprint of nearly all complex hardware.
I’m not saying you created the AI but you are one of its supporters, without which there would be no AI.
If this was all just pitched as developing a new plain English coding language, I think the hype following it would be far more appropriate, but then the funding wouldn’t follow to support the massive development costs of AI.
Its become a circle of hype chasing money chasing hype.
Its not you that is the problem so to speak though, its the collective “you’s” who think the same way.
I’m not discounting it. Improving productivity for office workers by 1% across the world is a massive amount
The power used to train the AI is alot, but after that using the AI uses a lot less electricity, if an AI spikes my gpu by 10 seconds to type something that would have taken me 30 minutes, I’ve saved on electricity:
arxiv.org/abs/2303.06219
Cool so we can just make up our own rules now. Well, all Microsoft products are freeware now because the same reason this guy
Windows XP code was leaked 2 years ago, so it’s freeware according to this idi… stable genius .
Ok… so from now on … when I see a “repackaged” Microsoft product that for some reason… which I don’t care to know… doesn’t ask for a payment… I can use it without restrictions ?!! that’s really nice of you Microsoft … thank you.
It’s freeware until someone else take m$ content without paying them, then it’s copyright infringement.
Fair, then everything I can find on the Internet must be freeware too. Set the sails, matey!
No officer, this is not a pirated movie. It’s generated by an AI model I created and trained with data from the internet and the fact that it’s 99% identical to an existing movie is irrelevant.
my AI is so good, it generated one that’s 100% identical
plus my AI uses less than 99% of the electricity of Microsoft’s
Can I just call lossy compression AI and use this as a defense?
It is an algorithm… So yes.
Also, this ground breaking AI model I made to do this was umm accidentally erased and I also forgot how to do make it.
Jury: “seems reasonable”
Wow the head of AI for MS doesn’t know what the word freeware means.
.
The definition is being changed by Microsoft
I’m fine with that, but let’s put some rules against this.
What you’re asking for is literally impossible.
A neural network is basically nothing more than a set of weights. If one word makes a weight go up by 0.0001 and then another word makes it go down by 0.0001, and you do that billions of times for billions of weights, how do you determine what in the data created those weights? Every single thing that’s in the training data had some kind of effect on everything else.
It’s like combining billions of buckets of water together in a pool and then taking out 1 cup from that and trying to figure out which buckets contributed to that cup. It doesn’t make any sense.
Respectfully, I worked for Alexa AI on compositional ML, and we were largely able to do exactly this with customer utterances, so to say it is impossible is simply not true. Many companies have to have some degree of ability to remove troublesome data, and while tracing data inside a model is rather difficult (historically it would be done during the building of datasets or measured at evaluation time) it’s definitely something that most big tech companies will do.
Sorry, I misinterpreted what you meant. You said “any AI models” so I thought you were talking about the model itself should somehow know where the data came from. Obviously the companies training the models can catalog their data sources.
But besides that, if you work on AI you should know better than anyone that removing training data is counter to the goal of fixing overfitting. You need more data to make the model more generalized. All you’d be doing is making it more likely to reproduce existing material because it has less to work off of. That’s worse for everyone.
It’s not impossible lol. All a company would need to do is keep track of where they were getting content. If I use a script to download as much of the internet as possible and end up with a bunch of copyrighted content I could still get in trouble, hell there was even a guy arrested for downloading jstor without authorization.. Stop letting these guys get away with crimes just because you like the idea of the end product
Sounds like homeopathy lol
He seems to be confusing “freeware”, which is basically a license for copyrighted work, with “public domain”, which is the absence of a copyright.
.
Yeah, but anything you create automatically has a copyright, so for example this comment is not in the public domain. Its use is limited to the context I am using it in; that is, I expect it to be copied for federation purposes, but I wouldn’t say that AI is covered in this context, just genuine readership, moderation, and bots that are ‘part of the community’.
At least that’s the EU stance afaik. Like if I saw this comment on a billboard somewhere I’d see that as a clear breach of copyright and even privacy.
Thats a great way to put it in a simple way: its wrong to use other peoples content for things they did not expect they would be.
Well, it’s one thing to say an ‘artificial agent’ looks at someone’s work on deviant art and learns from it. It’s another to use that to make money, as I personally can’t imagine many of the posters would have been on board with that.
<img alt="" src="https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/021/311/free.jpg">
You heard it here folks. Microsoft says if you find something online, it’s free.
Which is why I boycott as hard as I can every service this evil corporation provides (migrate your MS GitHub project away now so I can delete this account too)
Microsoft is in a death spiral.
Even my coworkers who are complete idiots with technology, who actively sabotage themselves every time they touch any piece of hardware and software, have soured entirely on nearly every Microsoft product across the board.
Its funny how quickly people change their minds when they dont understand the technology on a deeper level. Its just: “this is frustrating now I hate it” and no further thought.
@Rekorse @toastal They just reach the same point as professionals, only 10 years later (+/- 2 years)
Always was.
From the article:
They can argue about it not being a copy all they want. If there is a single GPL licenced line of code scraped then anything they produce is a derivative work & must be licenced GPL.
nice.
The only way I can see them weaseling out of this is by keeping the program running the model made in-house and proprietary while releasing the model in a format unusable without the base (proprietary) program. But maybe the GPL forbids such obfuscstion efforts (I don’t know, I haven’t studied it in detail)
GPL v2 don’t, which lead to tivoization. But Linus himself didn’t agree with that standing.
I’ll play the uniformed devils advocate here:
I’m torn about my personal opinion about copyrights and software licensing in general. I think the main problem is the huge power imbalance between people and corporations, not so much the fact a company analyzed a bunch of available data to solve programming problems.
They don’t copy the data and sell it verbatim to others which would be a legal issue and in my mind also a moral issue, as they don’t add any additional value.
1: yes
2: Normally derivative works are patched or modified versions of the original. I think the common English meaning would apply & chatGPT et al are fucked. I doubt there is a precedent for this yet.
I went into a smidge more detail over on my Mastodon last night, but my response is summed up as “WTAF? No! Freeware is an explicit license, as anyone from the BBS days will recall.”
Would you mind sharing a link to it here if it’s not any trouble? (Or your handle if that’s easier for you) I’m always looking for new stuff to check out and new people to follow on Mastodon
I look forward to the lawsuits that will ultimately cost this man his job.
I’d like to see this “CEO of AI” stand on the same ground as the CEO of Sex
So Windows XP source code leak is now freeware?
<img alt="1000012362" src="https://beehaw.org/pictrs/image/cc0b589d-a53b-4abe-8c13-7154eadde000.webp">
The social contract? Tf. The social contract still required attribution in almost all cases for creative work unless explicitlf stated otherwise—especially in the case of comercial products like ChatGPT—so I don’t know where this joker is getting his ideas.
Sure thing…now GPL/Creative Commons all your code involved in any way for your models, documentation, parameters, data sets, and allow full unlimited integration and modification by any parties to any portion of it.
Man it’s crazy how these fuckers basically get to ignore copyright law whenever it’s inconvenient to them but if you have one too many Windows machines provisioned they’ll send the Spanish Inquisition after you.
Friends don’t let Friends use Microsoft products. If you’re using Windows you’re finding this awful organisation. Shame on you.