Germany urges Apple and Google to remove DeepSeek from app stores over EU privacy concerns (alternativeto.net)
from Zerush@lemmy.ml to privacy@lemmy.ml on 28 Jun 18:51
https://lemmy.ml/post/32402407

#privacy

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MolecularCactus1324@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 19:17 next collapse

They can pretty easily just pass a law banning it and Apple and Google will remove it from the German app store

sabreW4K3@lazysoci.al on 28 Jun 19:23 next collapse

This is just xenophobia and political posturing, actual policy is too much to ask.

kionite231@lemmy.ca on 28 Jun 19:36 collapse

but why? there is not valid reason to remove only DeepSeek, they should remove AI all together including Gemini and ChatGPT

MolecularCactus1324@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 19:38 next collapse

Okay, then tell them that. I’m just saying urging is stupid. Lawmakers can make laws.

sunzu2@thebrainbin.org on 28 Jun 21:04 collapse

Everyone here knows that not how policy is made.

US corpos tell EU what they need, EU does it. China does not have such sway with EU with some exceptions.

Your regime whore politician would not take a piss on you, if you were on fire.

rockSlayer@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 28 Jun 19:45 collapse

It’s a cold war thing

ModernRisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 28 Jun 19:26 next collapse

Genuine question; what’s the difference between DeepSeek gathering data and for example ChatGPT or Gemini?

Three of them are (I assume) great for usage but disastrous regard privacy and data.

stink@lemmygrad.ml on 28 Jun 19:32 next collapse

Yes but you see a white man having control of your data is much better than a colored one!

kionite231@lemmy.ca on 28 Jun 19:35 next collapse

Genuine question; what’s the difference between DeepSeek gathering data and for example ChatGPT or Gemini?

because China bad and USA good :(

comrade_twisty@feddit.org on 28 Jun 20:13 collapse

I mean we can generally agree that China is worse. That doesn’t mean we should willingly donate our data to the US, but if you have to choose between amputating your foot or your little toe it’s an easy decision.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 20:38 next collapse

I mean we can generally agree that China is worse.

Can we? Which country had open sourced it’s models and weightings so that the LLM can be run locally and spyfree?

gaylord_fartmaster@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 20:53 next collapse

I run deepseek locally so obviously I appreciate that they made that decision, but let’s not pretend that something can’t be given away for free with bad intentions. People running LLMs locally are a drop in the bucket compared to people just downloading an app.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 19:33 collapse

Bad intentions? The Chinese government Deepseek showed that the OpenAI emperor had no clothes.

gaylord_fartmaster@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 20:49 collapse

I have no idea what point you’re trying to make. That means they have good intentions with the data they’re collecting about the users of their mobile apps?

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 21:24 next collapse

The point I’m trying to make is that I don’t think the CCP cares about the users of deepseek mobile app when they already have an ocean of data from tiktok. That’s the real trojan horse.

Mobile access to an LLM is a similarity. The big difference between chatgpt and deepseek is the open model weights.

gaylord_fartmaster@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 22:03 next collapse

You think them already invasively farming user data from tiktok somehow makes them less likely to do the same thing with another app, and not more likely?

If someone stole $1000 from you and then asked to borrow $20, would you give it to them? Surely they won’t steal that too, they already have $1000.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 22:33 collapse

I’m not saying it’s less likely. I’m saying there is a completely different reason for deepseek to exist.

Photuris@lemmy.ml on 01 Jul 22:40 collapse

Lol the real ones have long been on 小红书

Diurnambule@jlai.lu on 29 Jun 21:43 next collapse

That mean they have at least less bad intentions than chatgpt at least the opened their model on contrary of chatgpt.

gaylord_fartmaster@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 22:13 collapse

It does not mean that at all. Nothing about choosing to release a model for free or not has any bearing on whether or not the app will respect the privacy of its users.

OpenAI could feel like they’re making enough money off of their proprietary model that they don’t need to collect data (I’m not saying this is likely), while DeepSeek could have released the model for free hoping mass adoption leads to more app downloads and more data to harvest. I don’t assume either has good intentions.

Diurnambule@jlai.lu on 30 Jun 06:42 collapse

Thanks for putting other word in my mouth. I never told any of both have good intention, but at least deepseek didn’t promise to release the model to change it’s mind and close source it. Feel that it is a little better than chatgpt, since they didn’t shit on the face of the community yet. I am sure both collect data, and I wouldn’t thrust them with sensitive informations.

DieserTypMatthias@lemmy.ml on 30 Jun 15:52 collapse

I have no idea what point you’re trying to make.

It’s a reference to a fairy tale called Emperor’s new clothes.

HelloRoot@lemy.lol on 28 Jun 20:55 next collapse

France, Mistral. There are also many others in US and worldwide.

China is worse when comparing many other factors, but if ALL you care about is whether the model weights are os, then it is usually not decided by countries, but rather companies.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 22:10 collapse

There are also many others in US and worldwide.

We are comparing chatGPT and Deepseek.

China is worse when comparing many other factors

Again, not an opinion everyone agrees on. And this very much depends on which factors are cherry picked.

but if ALL you care about is whether the model weights are os,

If you want privacy then you need to run locally, and to run locally all you do care about is model weights.

then it is usually not decided by countries, but rather companies.

Not sure why this dimension is worth adding to the discussion.

Ilandar@lemmy.today on 29 Jun 10:12 next collapse

We are comparing chatGPT and Deepseek.

Then why are you asking binary questions about countries? Meta released open source models and weights way before DeepSeek, but I guess that wouldn’t fit into your “China is better” narrative so we’ll just pretend Llama never happened.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 16:38 collapse

Then why are you asking binary questions about countries

Because a highly opinionated binary statement was made about China. I’m not saying China is better than the US. I’m saying it’s not worse.

Ulrich@feddit.org on 29 Jun 12:02 collapse

We are comparing chatGPT and Deepseek.

You asked “which countries”.

not an opinion everyone agrees on.

Only people who don’t have their heads buried in the sand. You can’t possibly believe China is not much much worse than the US. I literally don’t believe you. You’re a bot or a paid actor.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 16:35 next collapse

You asked “which countries”.

Countries and LLM model providers associated with those countries.

  • All openai data goes to the NSA

  • Online deepseek data goes to the CCP. Local models stay private.

You can’t possibly believe China is not much much worse than the US.

When it comes to AI models, China is streets ahead in openness.

But if you are introducing other factors, ask an Iranian what they prefer; money from China or bombs from the US and vassal states?

The only people believing that Americans are superior in everything are Americans.

Ulrich@feddit.org on 29 Jun 18:05 collapse

When it comes to AI models, China is streets ahead in openness.

No one was talking about openness, we were talking about data collection.

All openai data goes to the NSA

Online deepseek data goes to the CCP. Local models stay private.

You’re comparing online models with local models. Local OpenAI models are also private.

The only people believing that Americans are superior in everything are Americans.

Good thing no one said that. It’s not just America either. Most countries are significantly more free than China (and Russia and North Korea), and if you don’t believe that, you need to open your eyes.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 18:25 collapse

No one was talking about openness, we were talking about data collection.

The only way to ensure no data collection is to run locally, which requires openness.

You’re comparing online models with local models.

Correct

Local OpenAI models are also private.

They don’t exist, and privacy cannot be guaranteed.

Good thing no one said that. It’s not just America either.

So you do think that.

Most countries are significantly more free than China (and Russia and North Korea),

The word used was “worse” which is highly subjective.

and if you don’t believe that, you need to open your eyes.

Residents of “the land of the free” don’t understand irony.

Ulrich@feddit.org on 29 Jun 18:30 collapse

Okay at this point its pretty clear you have no intention of good faith discussion and want to constantly redirect the conversation to a strawman argument so I’m going to bail.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 18:49 collapse

Dude, you are the one inserting words like “freedom” trying to slide the conversation.

China is not worse , principally because worse is unmeasurable.

Photuris@lemmy.ml on 01 Jul 22:46 collapse

Wow nuance much?

Yes, China has problems with authoritarianism, and curtailing free speech and such.

But, there’s a lot of good happening there too.

It’s not black and white.

USA v. China is not Gondor v. Mordor.

Have you been to China?

If not, you should 100% go and check it out for yourself!

Ulrich@feddit.org on 01 Jul 23:12 collapse

Wow nuance much?

There’s plenty of nuance but that’s not relevant in generalities.

there’s a lot of good happening there too.

No one said it’s all bad. There’s lots of good everywhere. That doesn’t mean everywhere is an equally good place.

Have you been to China? If not, you should 100% go and check it out for yourself!

What am I going to find out by going there that I can’t read about? That I’ve been lied to? That the CCP isn’t blocking information about Tianenmen Square and other govt atrocities? That the mere act of protesting isn’t illegal? That they aren’t murdering dissidents? Privacy in it’s entirety isn’t illegal?

Ulrich@feddit.org on 29 Jun 11:40 collapse

All of them?

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 16:42 collapse

Where is the ChatGPT repository?

sunzu2@thebrainbin.org on 28 Jun 21:02 next collapse

US oligarchs have serious sway within EU and Germany in particular. They get their way.

davel@lemmy.ml on 28 Jun 21:11 next collapse

I mean we can generally agree that China is worse.

We cannot agree, “comrade.”

m532@lemmygrad.ml on 29 Jun 03:09 next collapse

We? More like we…stern imperialists

0ddysseus@lemmy.world on 30 Jun 14:54 collapse

Oh no we fucking can’t bucko

huf@hexbear.net on 29 Jun 11:09 next collapse

chatgpt and gemini gather data for the US govt, which is the one actively fucking europe over at the moment. so clearly, deepseek is what they need to worry about.

RmDebArc_5@sh.itjust.works on 29 Jun 13:43 collapse

AFAIK per EU law the collected data has to stay in data centers in the EU, ChatGPT and Gemini at least pretend to conform while Deepseek explicitly states that the data is stored in Chinese data centers.

surph_ninja@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 20:10 next collapse

Germany’s going hard right again. Severe crackdowns on civil rights are escalating. They’re arresting people for posting criticism of political efforts online, ramping up their military, pushing far-right politicians into office, etc.

Time to eradicate the Nazis again.

far_university1990@reddthat.com on 28 Jun 20:30 next collapse

Bist du dumm oder sowas?

KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml on 29 Jun 11:10 collapse

Cope lol

sunzu2@thebrainbin.org on 28 Jun 21:01 next collapse

ramping up their military

Naive take on this point tbh... Germany is being forced by its allies to do its share for the alliance. I am sure Germany's nazi nepo baby leadership would rather be buying Russian gas right now to drive its industrial base but geopolitics are a bitch lol

yogthos@lemmy.ml on 29 Jun 14:29 collapse

thank you for gracing us with an example of how a thirteen year old understands the world

sunzu2@thebrainbin.org on 29 Jun 16:55 collapse

Cute

Zerush@lemmy.ml on 28 Jun 23:15 collapse

I’m from Spain, we also have problems with nazis, but not so as in Germany, but our left gov has a hard time with these hooligans.

edel@lemmy.ml on 29 Jun 19:24 next collapse

This is so pathetic now. US companies does " pretend" to storage data in Europe, then, 4 years later a couple of them are found out they did not (others did too but were not found to doing so) and an investigation and lawsuit is brought up and 6 years later found guilty and penalized a maximum of 10% of profits for that year (so effectively 1% profit/yr cost of business). Profits brought by the breach of European safeguards… tens times more than the potential penalties. Any CEO has to, by law, give the maximum profits to their investors, and they are just doing that.

But of course, the EU just won’t do that litigation dance with the Chinese companies, the EU knows well it is just a scam to pretend doing something to protect europeans… to Chinese companies, because US does not like, the EU just ban them. The EU will never ban a US company, no matter how many violations they do.

Zerush@lemmy.ml on 29 Jun 20:33 collapse

There are differences which prove that GDPR is far from perfect, but lightyears better from what the US permits.

Eg. M$ US

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/cf1d95ce-c6c5-4e47-bbe2-0ce6b35a0147.png"> <img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f1e73a39-2ec4-49cc-a33a-66550e08426a.png">

vs M$ EU (Germany)

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/981cde83-6b02-4625-9cd3-daaded364b71.png"> <img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/605c5afc-4321-42e8-b081-c07eca54cdfb.png">

edel@lemmy.ml on 29 Jun 20:55 collapse

Oh for sure! No doubt, at least makes people conscious of that. Now, the larger companies don’t have any problem bypassing the EU law and the incentives are mainly untouched for them to change.

phoenixz@lemmy.ca on 30 Jun 00:07 collapse

The gdpr isn’t exactly something you quite easily bupass…

Zerush@lemmy.ml on 30 Jun 02:28 collapse

Exactm every company in the RU is forced by law to fullfit the minimum of the GDPR to be able to sell their product, the fines are high, even for Google, MS and META, Nusk even said taking X out of the EU (I would approve it).

Lyubo@lemmy.ml on 30 Jun 11:49 collapse

This is not protecting peoples privacy but straight censorship. Just like how US wanted to ban TikTok.

Zerush@lemmy.ml on 30 Jun 12:23 collapse

US want to ban TikTok, because it’s a Chinese company, it has nothing to do with privacy, while in the EU a service must fullfit the GDPR to be allowed to offer their service in the EU and DeepSeek, among others, don’t. This has a lot to do with the privacy rights in the EU, those which in the USA don’t exist, not with censorship. Privacy is a basic right in the EU and not even the Police can access sensible personal data or track your activity without an court order, less aprivate company for advertising reasons or for training their AIs. But yes, right wing politicians in Germany want to change this, but this isn’t so easy in a working Democracy where it need to be approved with a majorit in th Bundestag.