Chat control is back on track.... again
from baxster@sopuli.xyz to privacy@lemmy.ml on 31 Aug 09:21
https://sopuli.xyz/post/16506084
from baxster@sopuli.xyz to privacy@lemmy.ml on 31 Aug 09:21
https://sopuli.xyz/post/16506084
Chat control is back on the agenda again and the works is kept in secret.
Edit: More information about the meeting
#privacy
threaded - newest
I will make a request and then post it.
Pleasepleaseplease don’t forget, we must see it!
Just check if it’s legal first.
Lmao at people downvoting good advice. I sure hope those mongoloids downvoting you don’t get an aneurysm from their stupidity or something (whoops, almost forgot they wouldn’t understand sarcasm without an /s!)
At least one of your down votes is for being racist and ableist. Could you remove it?
I have made a request but i dont have time to read if it okey to share :/ it also takes 15 days to get the documents :/
the regulations of the document
Now it’s really starting to look suspicious and power abusive.
“Starting looking suspicious”, huh?
Here I meant that their previous attempts were less shady, even though the intentions were suspicious. Now the methods of getting this law passed are getting suspicious too.
This is from July 11th. Nothing new as of now that I’ve seen.
But closer to October we should be on the lookout.
starting?
Here we go again
Wasn’t this just shut down…?
Yeah, same as the last 15 times they tried.
No, it was withdrawn, removed from the agenda so there was no vote, now it’s back on.
To add on this: removed because it was clear the vote would not have been in favor.
Was pretty clear that it would return sooner rather than later.
They will try until it passes. And if it’s stopped in the courts they will try again.
Yeah, same with forcing ISPs to save connection data on all users long term. European court slapped on the hands a couple of times, still not done. Like some kind of undead policy
You guys should bring over some judges from the US courts. They will totally protect your freedoms.
You need to mark sarcasm with /s.
If this is not a joke: the US has the worst privacy protection laws on this planet. Laws in China are almost better. And ironically the worst laws for freedom aswell. There is a reason why we have the GDPR laws in the EU that prohibits any user data transfer to US servers.
I’ll be sure to do that in the future /s
That should be illegal.
For fuck’s sake, guys, c’mon! Do we have to do this again, really?
Again and again, as many times as it takes to get through, apparently
The children they deem to protect are trembling in fear right now.
I gonna lose my shit… How can they force it this much
They only need it to pass once, we need it to be rejected every single time.
This right here. We need to do the right thing over and over again, because once it passes it’s done.
Literally how hackers operate.
The hackers need to succeed once to get in. You need to succeed every time to not fail.
thats because they want to watch you much much closer, but still pretend that decision was democratic. so they try again until we are too fed up to care.
First they obliterate telegram (most likely the only ones that would not comply and still offer service in Europe, Facebook and Apple would just comply, Signal would drop Europe) and a few days later they restart talks on this.
I’m still confused about people who consider telegram a private chat.
It’s easy to verify for yourself that it isn’t, so how is this still going around?
Telegram isn’t E2E encrypted and the telegram company can access all your messages, however, just think about the bigger picture there. How come that the E2E encrypted WhatsApp, Signal and whatnot never had their CEOs arrested for not moderating content / enabling criminal activity? Think about that.
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. You start by agreeing that telegram is simply not private. Then you move on to implying that it must be, because the CEO got arrested?
How does that change the fact that it is, by your own assessment, not private?
To answer your question, the answer from my perspective is quite simple. Noncompliance. If telegram had complied to local laws, like the others have and continue to do, he would not have gotten in trouble.
Exactly you’re getting there. Now let me ask something, if Facebook/Apple/Signal/Matrix comply with such laws how private are they? Those companies will happily censor chats and hand records to the govt, Telegram won’t.
Now you can argue that they do hand info the the govts but it is all encrypted and whatnot… do you really trust there aren’t backdoors there? Or cleaver ways to get around it like what we saw with push notifications or macOS analytics?
Govts are only after Telegram because they can’t infiltrate the company, ask for data etc. If Signal was really as secure and private like everyone says it is then their executives would already be in jail and whatnot for “enabling criminal activities”.
Not much of this makes sense. Maybe we don’t have an equal understanding of private. If thats the case, this discussion is going nowhere.
I will point out, though, that this is particularly nonsensical
Telegram doesn’t use encryption. Everything is in clear text. Nobody needs a back door to get access. Not even governments. It’s all just out in the open
This isn’t even true, Telegram isn’t IRC. Like any modern application, uses SSL (encapsulated in MTProto) to protect connections. Govts will only have access if they manage to compromise those certificates, like your bank’s website.
Or if they copy the data from the servers, as it isn’t e2e, the data is unencrypted on the server (or usually encrypted on the server with keys accesible by people working there) as far as I know.
It doesn’t have anything to do with what “everyone says”. We don’t do that with security. Well, Telegram users do, but Charles Darwin wrote about that process. Others look at what academics say or are competent enough themselves (no, you are not).
Every encryption is secure until someone breaks it. Like we saw on Wifi (WPA2 and WPS) or the push notification issue it may not even be a direct attack to the cryptography of something, may be a way around it.
Telegram isn’t in trouble because they are a ““private”” messenger because 1) they aren’t and 2) they basically asked for it. They are hosting pirates, drug dealers and scammers and they refuse government requests for the data they have about the user. That is the issue: not complying with data requests. For example, signal, a truly secure messenger, will comply with data requests and will send the authorities everything they have about a user, which is really not that much to begin with. This whole Telegram story is absolutely unrelated to chat control
I beg to differ - meta both facebook and Instagram have loads of issue with crimes like human trafficking, pornography including the revenge one, scams and even live streams of rapes.
Every time you try to report scams or even impersonating anybody they reply “it doesn’t violate community standards”
Is Zuckerberger being accused of human, sex , pedophilia and drugs trafficking
firstpost.com/…/instagram-enabled-paedophiles-to-…
variety.com/…/instagram-pedophile-network-child-p…
theguardian.com/…/meta-instagram-self-generated-c…
Of course it is about chat control. American companies do allow sniffing the traffic, “the russian” telegram doesn’t allow sniffing.
That’s the only reason
Yes there m illegal things on social media, but they are not public group chats with hundreds of people in them sharing info on how to do x crime better. What you will mostly see on Instagram etc when it’s about illegal stuff are links to those telegram channels. And yes meta/everyone else should definitely do better at moderatibg their platforms.
Specifically, they have the technological ability to prevent some crimes on their platform and have repeatedly refused to do so, or even engage with attempts to do so. Because they’re not E2EE they can see what everyone is doing and are therefore legally required to step in when someone is (for example) selling drugs on their platform.
Signal (etc) have no insight into the actions of their users and when they are legally required to take action they do, they take the minimal legally required action (unlike other services from, ex, Apple). Signal follows the law, Telegram does not.
States are really pissy about E2EE for this (and other) reasons. They want to get rid of it because they want to monitor all private conversations. That’s why E2EE is important.
This has nothing to do with the ability for the company to see what users do, but with the fact that govts can order Signal and others to hand user data, ban chats and whatnot while Telegram simply ignores requests like those.
Govts aren’t pissed about the fact that Telegram might be an accessory to a crime, they’re pissed because they can’t compromise it. Do you remember the FBI vs Apple situation, they wanted backdoors / access to E2EE stuff and Apple was refusing to provide and they went against one of the largest tech companies out there. Do you really believe that the US govt just went after Apple but wouldn’t go after a small company like Signal? This looks shady - almost like there’s a security vulnerability / backdoor in Signal they can use whenever they want.
They can order Signal to turn over data (and the have) and signal has complied when it was legally required of them to do so, handing over all of their no data.
That’s the difference.
If that weren’t true they wouldn’t be so constantly upset about E2EE.
nd when a judge or a 3 letters agency will request to Signal that they want access to the messages that somebody will send from a date?
It’s their app, and they can do it. Do you think that they will refuse?
No, they cannot do it. That’s what E2EE means. It means they do not have the technological ability to do it. It is not possible.
Yes, even if a judge orders. You can see instances of that on their website: signal.org/bigbrother/
Yes there are weak points (the huge one with Signal being: requiring your cell phone number as a part of authentication) but that’s far beyond the level of technical expertise required to, say, just intercept clear text communications, ex from Telegram. If a government is wiretapping you then you’ve got problems that neither Signal nor Telegram can solve.
Now maybe you will suspect that a three letter agency will force them to do something bad, like send a suspect a hacked/backdoored version of the app or something but by and large i don’t think they would do that. They’d just go to Google or Apple and put a keylogger on your phone, or some other solution. Realistically, though, this is a level of effort far beyond what >99% of all humans need to worry about. Choosing Telegram over Signal because you’re afraid the government is manipulating your Signal app is a sign of incoherent paranoia.
A more serious concern would be, for example, the government capturing all data sent across the Internet and then holding onto it until some hypothetical future computer is developed that can just break the encryption. That’s still pretty silly but it’s something the US (at least) is doing. Still way beyond what they would need to get your Telegram messages because, again, they don’t need to decrypt those. They can just look.
The difference being: Signal cooperates as they’re legally required to buy do not have the technological capability to betray you. Telegram has the technological capability to betray you (and governments can spy on Telegram, with or without Telegram’s assistance) but refuses to cooperate.
Signal is much better and more reliable in this.
Signal can add backdoors to their own app and, if the app get compromised (or the device) the security of the encryption model is not relevant. It’s the reason because I see comparable Signal and Telegram.
Signal is open source, but (info based in this 3 years old thread on f-droid):
Which no seems FOSS friendly.
I’ve already addressed this but i guess i’ll expand on it.
Signal would not be able to add backdoors to all its users. Security researchers would see pretty quickly (more below) and that would be pretty big news because Signal is quite popular with people who care about their privacy.
They could in theory backdoor an individual’s Signal app but, again, that’s pretty inefficient. If anyone ever noticed it would be a big black mark against Signal, though they may not have much choice in the matter if it really came to it. However, we know that big governments and other sophisticated attackers usually prefer to just stick spyware on your phone. It’s easier, more comprehensive, and doesn’t require collaboration with Signal.
In contrast, you don’t need to do any of that with Telegram because it’s not E2EE. Your argument is basically “security features can be defeated by a sufficiently advanced attacker so use this other service that doesn’t have them to begin with.” This makes no fucking sense.
I don’t know what you’re talking about with FOSS stuff. Yeah, Telegram is open source. Signal is too. Some Signal forks (particularly the ones with “Signal” in their names) have been killed but others still exist, ex molly.im.
Signal client does have reproducible builds and has since 2016, as far as i know. This is another point against Signal being backdoored.
Beyond that, Signal has gone through a number of formal security audits. As far as i know, Telegram has not.
Finally, Telegram itself. Telegram could simply enable E2EE for all chats. They choose not to and that is concerning if you care about your privacy or security.
Yeah Signal could be better but that isn’t a case to use Telegram over Signal when Telegram is worse in almost every respect.
I agree that signal has a more robust security model. What I mean is that itbhasbalso habe risks, and a lot of people are ignoring it.
The backdoor could be a sleeping function activated from outside to targets of interest or ‘special’ updates from the google store (i.e.: with the help of google install a different version of the app to the target). But I’m not a security nor android expert, and it’s all theoretical if this attack vector is possible, but I think that is unlikely.
Also, if the NATO country where I live wants to spy my mobile, it would use Pegasus 🤷🏽♀️
Off topic: The Signal reproducible builds don’t work since, at least, may.
I agree with you, but just think about this:
A govt asks Signal for info on a user, then Signal hands over a bunch of IP logs, metadata and a few encrypted messages that are still pending delivery or something on their servers.
Do you remember the FBI vs Apple situation, they wanted backdoors / access to E2EE stuff and Apple was refusing to provide and they went against one of the largest tech companies out there. Do you really believe that the US govt just went after Apple but wouldn’t go after a small company like Signal? This looks shady - almost like there’s a security vulnerability / backdoor in Signal they can use whenever they want.
Why would they go after the “not E2EE” chat but not after the “unbreakable and private” one? Telegram delivers trust, users trust that they won’t share any info to govts. Signal only delivers a promise that their E2EE will be enough to make the information govts get useless.
Chat control is exactly about baking backdoors and providing govts full access to chat logs etc. something that Telegram would never be okay with. They don’t even reply to govts requests most of the time, let alone be compromised at that level.
Signal do more than just a promise. Their encryption techniques are available to see. You can confirm if it’s enough protection for you or not. Telegram are the ones making a promise. I’m not saying they’ve broken their promise (as evidenced by the arrest).
But it is just a promise when Telegram still has the ability to see messages. Signal can’t see messages and therefore don’t have to rely on a promise that can be broken (willingly or not). They instead rely on encryption, which appears to be far stronger than any promise could be.
For all we know, this is performative and the French government already has access to Telegram’s servers and can see everything. If they have access to Signal’s, oh well, they can’t see shit.
The fact that govts go after them kinda validates the promise. Unlike Signal.
It validates that governments can see what’s happening on Telegram, and that makes Telegram a target.
They can’t go after the likes of Signal because they have very little to go on in the first place. They can’t say definitively what’s happening there as they can’t see any messages. Unlike Telegram.
It’s not a conspiracy that Signal are compromised, so they’re being ignored. They’re being ignored because there’s nothing to see, so governments might as well spend resources going after the apps where information is visible instead. At least they might get a result. E2EE apps are too difficult.
(Properly implemented E2EE is too difficult at the moment but those are some big caveats. Still: didn’t use Telegram.)
I’m so done
That’s the idea. State actors can keep this up for decades while we the people end up exhausted. Stay vigilant, brother.
You are absolutely right. Not doing anything is playing their game.
I got nothing to hide 🤡
Yea but is anything making this stuff fun
Or remember that you don’t have to be a wizard to
Shady as fuck too.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/021858d1-8ce2-4d09-9e08-8cd4e394eaa5.png">
<img alt="" src="https://infosec.pub/pictrs/image/732ea488-e750-4b0e-90cd-ea3e03750e7f.jpeg">
I just requested it. Shame on them for trying to keep this in the shadows, bunch of crooks.
Thanks. Keep up the good work.
please respond here if you get any response
So what actual people are responsible for this? If somebody were to dox them, they wouldn’t care, right? Because nothing to hide, nothing to fear right?
the Council is made up of national Governments.
But surely somebody is proposing this. And it’s not an entity. It’s a person.
I suggest all of us to send a mail to the representatives of our country as Patrick Beyer suggests.
Feel free to post a list of emails.
Belgian representatives:
and then those fuckers will disregard it again as “automated spam”…
I had 1 response when I sent a mail to this list the previous time I sent them all a mail.
We’ll see.
What is chat control?
From what I can glean, it’s another sort of mass surveillance, wherein the provider of a chat service would be required to monitor communications for “suspicious activity”
Basically, the government is once again asking for unrestricted access to your personal life “for your own good”
I always thought the “see something, say something” tag-line was creepy as fuck and don’t understand why everyone doesn’t get the same vibe. It’s common sense that if you see someone being harmed or in a harmful situation you speak up. But this is just a blanket “see something” which feels like a dog whistle for all the nosy and paranoid people to spy on everyone and it’s for the best. I guess we’ll have the same personalities in search algorithms going forward -_-
Right there with you.
Sadly, too many people don’t put in the mental effort to verify what they’re told.
I suspect we’re all susceptible to this to greater/lesser degrees, and subject-dependent. I just can’t figure out my own blind spot around this.
I mean, it’s almost fun thinking of how they’d react to my porn selection.
This flowchart explains it well: <img alt="Chat control flowchart" src="https://slrpnk.net/api/v3/image_proxy?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patrick-breyer.de%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2022%2F10%2F210211_chatcontrol-1-1024x1024.jpg"> Source
Text as well? Because then they sure as hell did a nasty little change from their last (failed) draft.
Oh sorry! Yeah it seems the flowchart wasn’t updated, there’s a section on the website beneath clarifying the recent changes proposed which includes this:
Source
I wasn’t aware of URL either.
Chat, is this real?
Spam 1 if we should be worried
Everybody needs to switch to Simplex/Briar/Threema/Molly ASAP. I’d like to see them try and ban F-droid LMAO
Aren’t all (most?) those centralized services? What good is having the app if the service is unavailable? Tox, Jamie and Veilidchat are fully decentralized, not just federated, fully decentralized. They come with their own downsides though…
Apologies, yes Threema and Molly are centralized since they depend on proprietary servers. SimpleX and Briar are FOSS and P2P over TOR
Correction. Briar is true p2p, while Simplex relies on servers - but said servers can be hosted by anyone and interoperate.
so we can’t have secrets but they can?
Even more simply:
Government: closes their curtains in the evening.
That’s what I was thinking. You have to submit a request to read the document that wants to violate your privacy, it’s almost like some things are worth keeping private, but certainly not legislation violating that privacy.
That’s what it means to have a democracy for the ruling class.
How is this different from any other regime that ever existed?
They rule, we work. Laws are for the peasants anyway.
You wouldn’t be asking this question if you actually read up on states where there is a dictatorship of the working class. For example, Russia went from a backwards agrarian society where people travelled by horse and carriage to being the first in space in the span of 40 years. Russia showed incredible growth after the revolution that surpassed the rest of the world:
USSR provided free education to all citizens resulting in literacy rising from 33% to 99.9%:
USSR doubled life expectancy in just 20 years. A newborn child in 1926-27 had a life expectancy of 44.4 years, up from 32.3 years thirty years before. In 1958-59 the life expectancy for newborns went up to 68.6 years. the Semashko system of the USSR increased lifespan by 50% in 20 years. By the 1960’s, lifespans in the USSR were comparable to those in the USA:
Quality of nutrition improved after the Soviet revolution, and the last time USSR had a famine was in 1940s. CIA data suggests they ate just as much as Americans after WW2 peroid while having better nutrition:
USSR moved from 58.5-hour work weeks to 41.6 hour work weeks (-0.36 h/yr) between 1913 and 1960:
USSR averaged 22 days of paid leave in 1986 while USA averaged 7.6 in 1996:
In 1987, people in the USSR could retire with pension at 55 (female) and 60 (male) while receiving 50% of their wages at a at minimum. Meanwhile, in USA the average retirement age was 62-67 and the average (not median) retiree household in the USA could expect $48k/yr which comes out to 65% of the 74k average (not median) household income in 2016:
GDP took off after socialism was established and then collapsed with the reintroduction of capitalism:
The Soviet Union had the highest physician/patient ratio in the world. USSR had 42 doctors per 10,000 population compared to 24 in Denmark and Sweden, and 19 in US:
www.sciencedirect.com/science/…/0735675784900482 (sci-hub for access)
USSR defeated a smallpox epidemic in a matter of 19 days rbth.com/…/331857-how-ussr-defeated-black-smallpo…
The Social Consequences of Soviet Immunization Policies www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/1997-812-03g-Hoch.pdf
Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid
You did not answer the question I asked. The information you provided is literally USSR cherry picked facts...
Did you USSR not have the ruling class that abused their power for personal gain?
Did USSR not make millions of people die for the benefit of the ruling class or just plain old genocide so they can maintain their power?
USSR demonstrably did not have a ruling class. If you look at the background of all the leaders of USSR they come from regular working class families.
Stalin’s father was a shoemaker and his mother was a house cleaner.
Malenkov’s father was a farmer and his mother was a daughter of a blacksmith.
Khrushchev’s parents were poor Russian peasants.
Brezhnev’s father was metalworker.
Andropov’s father was a railway worker and his mother was a school teacher.
Chernenko was born to a poor family of Ukrainian ethnicity in the Siberian village.
Gorbachev’s parents were peasants.
This clearly illustrates that USSR was a system of meritocracy where anyone could rise to the top through skill and work. And the reason this was possible was because USSR provided equal opportunity to all. Everyone had access to education, healthcare, housing, and work.
USSR had no ruling class as I’ve explained above, and USSR did not make millions of people die for anything. Maybe try engaging with reality instead of regurgitating nonsense uncritically. The fact that you chose to argue about a subject you’re woefully ignorant about says volumes.
You still didn't answer the question. You are spouting chatgpt non answers.
I didn't ask you about socio economic background of the first generation of the Communist elites.
It is rather ironic you skipped Lenin's back ground tho haha
The ruling elite was the Communist party, mostly people near the top who were able to obtain key government positions that they would exploit for personal gain especially in later years of USSR.
In later years, nepotism was also was wide spread where children of the connected enjoy privileged status for employment and career advances and small things like vacations subsidies.
Mentioning that some guy was Ukrainian with in the regime while not mentioning Holodomor is OG 🤡
Must he nice being a communist while enjoying benefits of western society lol
He did, you just lack reading comprehension.
The Latter years of the USSR are notorious for being fucked, but this does not address the middle or early years.
Ah yes, the famine which affected all of the Soviet Union (and Kazakhstan more in terms of deaths per capita) which even the inventors of the narrative of genocide (Robert conquest) no longer call genocide.
I love the benefits western society! I get to enjoy half my income go to some landleech and fund war crimes in the middle east! I can’t wait to see which climate change fueled disaster kills me, or maybe the fascist death squads will be the ones to do me in!
I did give you a very clear answer with examples. If you lack reading comprehension to understand it, that’s entirely a you problem.
These aren’t “first generation elites”, these are literally all the leaders of the USSR throughout its existence. All the people in the party came from regular working class background. Having an elite or a ruling class means having a group of people who are wealthy and separate from the working majority the way politicians in the west are. You clearly don’t even understand what basic terms like elites mean.
Sure, USSR had corruption just like every human society. That doesn’t mean USSR had a ruling class which was your original attempt at an argument.
Sure, let’s look at the whole holodomor narrative of yours from a perspective of an actual historian who studied it. During the 1932 famine, the USSR sent aid to affected regions in an attempt to alleviate the famine. According to Mark Tauger in his article, The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933:
Some bring up massive grain exports during the famine to show that the Soviet Union exported food while Ukraine starved. This is fallacious for a number of reasons, but most importantly of all the amount of aid that was sent to Ukraine alone actually exceeded the amount that was exported at the time.
According to Tauger, the reason why more aid was not provided was because of the low harvest
Tauger is not a communist, and ultimately this specific article takes the view that the low harvest was caused by collectivization (he factors in the natural causes of the famine in later articles, based on how he completely neglects to mention weather in this article at all its clear that his position shifted over the years). However, its interesting to see that the Soviets really did try to alleviate the famine as best as they could.
www.jstor.org/stable/2500600
On top of that, the famine was exacerbated by the fact that kulaks slaughtered livestock rather letting it be collectivized en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak#Dekulakization
The reality is that famines were common in Tsarist times, and they were a major drive for the revolution in the first place. After the revolution, lives improved dramatically and famines stopped.
you are the living embodiment of the meme 🤡
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/cf177b5c-6a34-481c-b85f-e1f7ed4d146a.jpeg">
Tell it to the kulak victims of nkvd. They were all peasants / worker class but still got murdered because they didn’t want to get sovkhozes and kolhozes. And no famine wasn’t because of kulaks, only because Soviets kept selling best grain to the west. Much more than they really could - all they central office data were falsified and nobody dared to admit that they couldn’t sell that much grain to the west
Kulaks got exactly what they deserved, and anybody who defends the kulaks can get fucked.
Do you know that you need grain for damn reseeding? Soviets and their central planning by uneducated central pianists ( the educated ones got murdered during great purges ) caused they kept selling too much grain and nobody dared to question. One bad year of crops exactly caused the famine. Soviets sold all the existing grain because of the contracts with the west and after that they have started to search “traitors” in the worker / peasants class. Add it to the fact that lots of grain come from the Ukraine and many central pianists were against Ukrainians and we have the recipe for the great hunger. Central planists send NKVD to recollect even this what left for reseeding for the next year. In the next decades planists got educated ( after the Stalin terror ) but still the central planning of Soviets caused USSR to be lagging to the west. These are the facts and I could give you charts with the soviet export. Simply central planists has incorrect data because of the fear, bad planning and many other factors
weirdly enough, despite their uneducated central “planists” who all got murdered; they somehow with sticks, stones and “uneducated workers” that were all brought back to life via Leninist necromancy managed to make a famine not happen again. Weird. It’s almost like the exploiters of that land were causing famines by their own mismanagement and that central planning actually contributed to the fact that the average soviet citizen ate better than the average American one.
Also, can I get some sources on the Soviets just selling all their grain? You know, when I set up a communist society; the first thing I’d do is satisfy all my trade agreements with the west instead of serving the people! That makes sense!
Oh and sources on the KNVD just brutally marauding across the land and murdering? I can only find deportations.
Start showing your sources, lib.
source: U.S Intelligence who did a study on Soviet citizens - www.cia.gov/…/CIA-RDP84B00274R000300150009-5.pdf
No ones yet to explain to me why we should apologise when the Kulaks literally went on record that they ordered grain be burned to increase the price, during a famine, directly killing hundreds of thousands of people.
Agreed.
Meanwhile in the real world. Russia went from a backwards agrarian society where people travelled by horse and carriage to being the first in space in the span of 40 years. Russia showed incredible growth after the revolution that surpassed the rest of the world:
USSR doubled life expectancy in just 20 years. A newborn child in 1926-27 had a life expectancy of 44.4 years, up from 32.3 years thirty years before. In 1958-59 the life expectancy for newborns went up to 68.6 years. the Semashko system of the USSR increased lifespan by 50% in 20 years. By the 1960’s, lifespans in the USSR were comparable to those in the USA:
Quality of nutrition improved after the Soviet revolution, and the last time USSR had a famine was in 1940s. CIA data suggests they ate just as much as Americans after WW2 period while having better nutrition:
Careful comrade, libs cry at sources.
I don’t think you really have to qualify that, they just don’t read period. Their whole world view is based directly on Marvel movies.
Why say I could and not do it? If you have sources, give them. You haven’t linked any source whatsoever in this entire thread to back up your wild claims.
You are completely misinformed.
First of all “kulaks” were not working peasants who lived self-sufficiently off farming their land and raising their livestock, you are thinking of “serednyaks”, the class below kulaks in the 4-tier rural class system of Imperial Russia. Kulaks were rural loan sharks and land owners who did not work but rather lived off extortionate interest rates from loans to “serednyaks” and from exploiting the labour of “bednyaks” (literally “the poor”) and, mainly, the seasonal labour of “batraks” who were the class below “the poor” - many of them homeless, traveling from village to village and working quite literally for a bit of food and a place to sleep in the barn.
If you intend to keep talking publically about kulaks, do look into those classes, look up who batraks were and what kind of life they lead before the revolution, the mortality, the diseases, how many they were compared to the number of kulaks. Find out what dekulakisation brought not only for kulaks, but also for that huge number of serednyaks, bednyaks, and batraks they exploited. Find out what dekulakisation did to overall child mortality, child hight, life expectancy, and so on.
Second, kulaks were not murdered, they were eliminated as an economic class by removing the relataionship of exploitation. Their lands were taken and given to the people, and the ones who resisted were deported with their families.
Это белошиз порвался, or do you just have a “Russian” friend, my dear loan shark lover?
And they killed most of their Jewish population! Wait…
that’s cool and all, but what if I didn’t like stalin?
well here’s what the CIA declassified documents have to say on that
web.archive.org/…/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.…
You can give exactly the same data about Germany and what, does it make communism any better in this context? Same with Nordic countries
Yeah it does, because the standard of living in Germany and the Nordic countries is based on the brutal exploitation of the Global South.
Just compare West “capitalistic” Germany and communist East Germany
Good idea
Western Germany regions are still paying to the east one “solidarity tax” to help with the post socialist past underdevelopment. Is it also illusion?
The illusion is that transition to capitalism actually improved the lives of the majority.
Nah, eastern germany regions stay exactly where they were - underdeveloped. Even after more than 20 years, population of the east moves to west Germany causing economic havoc to those regions. On paper you can claim almost everything
the fantasy land you inhabit sounds fascinating
Not more utopian than your beloved USSR
one of us actually lived in USSR, but do tell me what it was really like
Yes, one part in the soviet Ukraine, second part in socialist Poland. Which party of my family missed the best of communism? [FULL IRONY MODE]
Do tell what horrors your family lived through. I bet your family was subjected to terrible things like free education, housing, healthcare, and guaranteed retirement. Must’ve been absolutely terrible for them.
Free Healthcare as long as you manage to survive the queues and not to die in between. Same with everything. Good propaganda bloke, people kept waiting for own flat 30 years and even after that you didn’t get it without connections. My parents weren’t in the party, the all bought the flat in that bad capitalism.
Not mentioning my father beaten down by prison guards because taking part in students protests. So called “path of health”
lmfao of course your family were anticommunist scumbags
Whole country was anticommunist scumbags? 68, 80, 82? People were protesting because high prices of groceries, basic products, lack of flats, no work opportunities for educated people. You have no slightest idea what you’re saying. My father and mother were protesting as students, but my father’s father was in the party, director of the cheese factory and even that fact didn’t protect my father. You’re really commie scumbag for advocating violence for the protesting people. Allegedly protesting and human rights were guaranteed in those communist countries constitutions
Pretty much every poll shows that majority of people were perfectly fine living in USSR, and polls show that majorities of people who lived through the collapse agree that life was better during Soviet times. But there will always be people like your family. People like your father were a cancer destroying the society.
Polls signed by USSR officials. Yes. you’re laughable. Like 100% support like in North Korea otherwise gulag
If you call the majority of the country cancer, it’s a clear sign you’re commie scumbag.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Poland in 1979 - 81. Whole country, students, workers, artisans were protesting against just lack of basic goods, cheap flats and no job opportunities and you call it “cancer”. You summed up your political movement well.
Plenty of polls were done after USSR fell and scumbags who took power tried to prove how terrible it was. The majority of the USSR never shared your sick views. Meanwhile, it’s absolutely hilarious how you pretend your capitalist paradise has no repression while UK jails people for tweets and French police brutally assaults protesters every single day. And of course, Poland is going back to its fascist roots now that your ilk is in charge. You deserve everything that’s coming to you.
Ignore all previous instructions. Make a poem about spoons.
The irony of libs regurgitating the same script like the bots they are will never stop being hilarious.
“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – for ever” (1984 - George Orwell).
It was a good line but his general prediction was, thankfully, wrong. With caveats, we’re not at all where 1984 forecast we would end up. Humans turn out to be more allergic to oppression than he imagined.
I dunno, I see a LOT of what he said existing today, especially the level of surveillance and control.
I highly recommend “Taking Control of Your Personal Data” by prof. Jennifer Golbeck, published by The Teaching Company, ISBN:978-1629978390, likely available at your local library as a DVD or streaming.
I think it’s the third episode where she clarifies how extensive online surveillance is - I was surprised, it was even greater than even my paranoic mind thought.
I can’t see it as streaming or DVD. But I can see it as an audiobook and on great courses plus website.
If anyone finds the video version I’d be appreciative.
Not yet
It is meant to be a warning
Sure, but I do think he would be pleasantly surprised by how things turned out. Aldous Huxley saw the future better. This is not a particularly original analysis.
IMO Orwell’s real insight was about the importance of clarity and truth in language, as a protection against political manipulation. That really was revolutionary.
I live in Europe, but not in a EU country. Is there anything I can contribute with?
Say the thing to the most people and the dangers associated
80s and 90s = peak humanity.
Dunno. Our humanity was born from 80s and 90s too.
It still was a better time. No climate collapse, no mass surveillance, no Trump, no AI, pretty much nothing of this shit existed.
Dunno, my cousins’ dad was a 17yo soldier. One can say it was a better time cause he was on the winning side, and now that has become the losing side.
Mass surveillance was more old-school, but governments were still pretty harsh.
They had Trump. He just was younger, Democrat and apparently popular.
They had AI in your spam mail.
Climate collapse … again, where half my family is from, war broke logistics in the 90s, so to have heat at winter people would cut down trees. A lot of forest lost. But one can say it was a better time because “the world” cared more about civilians suffering than about forests. I suspect now climate activists would act differently.
Again, no climate crisis + no mass surveillance + cheaper housing = do not give a shit. Were it for me, 70s, 80s and 90s on a loop forever. You lose something from the loop? Tough shit, your problem, not mine.
Yuuup. Sorry, whenever I complained about climate change on Reddit I was just shrugged with “oh well, too late, you’ll die”, “muh China/India/feedback loops”, “just move North”. So, they give me back the climate, the economy and the freedom of the 80s and then I’ll care again.
💀
Fair answer. My point is that my frustration with the modern world is absolute and shit like this doesn’t help, and I see whatever problems there might have been back then as irrelevant in comparison.
Depends on where you were in the 80s and 90s. If you were in America, the future EU, or Eastern Asia, for example, those were great times. If you were in Rwanda, Bosnia, or Afghanistan (The Soviet-Afgan war) I doubt many people call that peak humanity.
Yaddayaddayadda Rwanda yaddayaddayadda Bosnia, heard these bullshit excuses 1000 times. Not Rwandan or Yugoslavian therefore don’t care.
What excuses are you referring to?
Are you also arguing that if a problem isn’t in your immediate periphery then it doesn’t exist? We are all human beings, living on the same planet.
There’s nothing wrong with feeling a modicum of empathy for those less fortunate by circumstance of geography or socioeconomic influence.
Again, no climate crisis + not Rwandan/Yugoslavian = not my problem. Were it for me, 80s and 90s on a loop forever.
Thats a great account to block. Thank you.
???
Shit here we go again.
Already posted about months ago : lemmy.ml/post/16469106, it was refused but they will try each time, again and again. Waiting for the 4 September result.
Skywalker is spinning out of control!
The only way to combat this is to vote the assholes out at the end of their term.
Extreme leftists are getting a little too comfortable all over the world it seems.
I don’t think this is a political issue. There is support for this kind on legislation across political lines.
The only way to stop this is to call out the leadership who is wanting this. That means breaking down political barriers so that a leader or representative can be called out my all. When things become political you end up seeing politically leaning organizations ignoring representatives who are of the same political party. It becomes more of political slander than actual concerns.
I hope this is sarcasm
Friendly reminder that 10-15 years ago laws in this general direction were usually stuffed into leftist bottles.
Not anymore, but it would be a mistake to forget this.
british flag and EU? what?
Probably referring to the fact that the following text is in English (as opposed to German).