Government Surveillance on Chinese vs US made phones
from tapdattl@lemmy.world to privacy@lemmy.ml on 26 Jan 19:38
https://lemmy.world/post/42209814
from tapdattl@lemmy.world to privacy@lemmy.ml on 26 Jan 19:38
https://lemmy.world/post/42209814
Question that I’ve been mulling over recently: My threat model dictates that I’m more likely to be surveilled by the US government than by the Chinese government. We can also assume that the Chinese government is not going to cooperate with the US government in any investigations of potential activist activity.
Would it not be best, then, to use a Chinese-made phone that, even though we know that information is going to China, we can also assume that any backdoors in the system are unknown to the US Gov?
I’m interested in everyone’s take on this.
threaded - newest
I know a Pixel isn’t available everywhere, some folks can’t afford them, and giving Google money just feels wrong but a Pixel with GrapheneOS will cut off both the USA and Chinese governments.
My advice here then would be to buy a used Pixel from not Google (either through a carrier or a site like Newegg or Backmarket or similar). Google won’t get any additional cash, supports keeping waste out of the landfill, and you can use Graphene. For longevity, you can get used Pixel 9s and 9as for not too much so it’s still a decently new phone
It’s a good plan. OP needs to make sure the phone isn’t carrier locked.
Way ahead of me
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That’s kind of my theory about how TikTok was. It wasn’t subjected to US censorship and interests, only Chinese, so there was sort of a window where Americans could actually organize on it. Obviously that couldn’t stand once authority figured that out. Hence, the sudden cows being had over TikTok being owned by China.
There was disinformation and spying being used gather Intel and push disinformation. That’s why Biden wanted it gone. Trump was the one who decided he could use it for the same reasons as the Chinese.
Of course. Of. Course.
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What Biden actually wanted was to control the narrative about Gaza so that his support for Israel’s genocide wouldn’t cost him the election. Unlike US corporate media—including social media—TikTok wasn’t censoring the truth.
TikTok’s whole purpose is mass data-harvesting of its users. An app designed to do that while being owned by foreign nation is a valid concern to point out. Of course, the US doesn’t actually care about anyone’s privacy, they just want the data for themselves. Hence wanting a sale to a US company rather than going after the actual data collection
I use Google Pixel 9a with GrapheneOS installed and as far as I know, this phone does not have any known hardware backdoors/exploits, though that might be just because I enabled every possible security option in the Privacy and Security tab of the GrapheneOS’ settings.
If they had hardware backdoors we wouldn’t know about them. In the end, with closed-source hardware, drivers and firmware, there’s a lot we just don’t know about what our devices are doing.
But as a Canadian I consider the USA to be a more immediate threat than China. I’m trying to extract myself from depending on US technology bit by bit, as far as possible.
Aren’t both pretty imminent in Canada? I seem to recall something about China operating a secret police in Canada to keep Chinese people in line. A Chinese backdoor wouldn’t affect you personally, but if you have a conversation with a Chinese person that’s critical of the CCP, a Chinese backdoor in your phone COULD affect them.
I guess something like GrapheneOS would work best. I hear they’re partnering with some manufacturer to get rid of the Pixel requirement. Very much intrigued personally. I’m still happy with my aging iPhone and don’t have a threat model to be super concerned about state level actors, but if push comes to shove, I’m getting either GrapheneOS, or a de-googled Android ROM on a Fairphone at the very least.
I agree. China’s tech is still a risk, and GrapheneOS is the best option right now though Google seem to be working hard to undermine it and other custom Androids. If Linux phones can get up to speed and do away with the need for the Android base, and especially if they can run on more open hardware, that could be even better.
I’m running a Pixel 9 with GrapheneOS as my daily driver as well, but I’m planning for future needs and/or the need to use a burner phone
Holy cannoli, a voice of reason! Yes.
Not sure what you mean. As far as I know, all phones are made in China/Taiwan.
Valid point, more specifically I’m talking about phones developed, manufactured, and sold by Chinese companies such as Huawei and Xiaomi.
I see. I don’t really think the hardware is terribly relevant. The software, and how you use it, is what matters most.
And most phones are shipped with software that is often difficult to change.
No way: that’s how you get 5G Havana Syndrome.
It’s about the software. If the software is American, like iOS or Android, all your data goes to the US government.
Read the US Cloud Act. They literally have access to everything and they dont hide it.
I was in a training course recently run by 20 year veteran of Gov cyber security (not US).
When I asked him about GrapheneOS he said it was a good option and much better than vendor android or iOS, but that he uses Chinese phones (Huawei & Honor) for his personal devices exclusively these days.
Sounds like he had a pretty high turnover though and is obviously well aware of what information is shared/leaked and I imagine his devices are as locked down as they can be.
Surprised me though.
Could be an option if you really know what you’re doing. If not you might be better with a trusted provider like Graphene OS.
US phones spy to sell your data to any advertising company AND gov, Chinese phones spy on you by the gov, because control, bad for Chinese people (most using VPN because the Great Firewall, forbidden but tolerated, mainly to access US services, like Google, YT and other big US corporation, blocked in China), relative irrelevant for other countries. Means that China isn’t worse than the US, less currently. Main issue by Chinese people is the control of the gov, but privacy (there isn’t a private company with access to your data without consent) and social rights is way better as those from the US.
GrapheneOS is about as close as you will get.
Have burners if you want, but realize that with vanilla Android or Apple iOS on those devices, they will suck up a lot of data about surrounding devices, Bluetooth devices, and wifi networks. This can be probabalistically matched to your real identity even if you use VPNs and you aren’t using any known accounts on the burners. As for GPS data, that’s even worse.
Its probably best to have at least one “normie” phone you do boring stuff on, a Graphene enabled phone for sensitive-but-not-illegal daily driving, and anything spicier than that should be a burner in a Faraday bag, which you cycle and destroy/discard regularly.
China is a country that doesn’t care about the individual. If it’s in their interest to give your information to the Americans they will.
The best solution is really GrapheneOS.
Literally a country dictated by it’s individuals
You have to admit that relative to America which leans more towards individual rights, China leans more towards collective rights.
Usa leans more towards no rights for anyone except the owning class members
Im sure the people in prison in China for trying to unionize but being denied because the state ran union decided it was again the “national” interest agree with you.
What do you mean by China not caring about the individual? Are you referring to how they center the working classes over private interests?
In America the justice system leans strongly in favour of the defence (unless you’re poor, but we’ll put that aside for now). In China and east Asia more generally the justice system leans towards maintaining social harmony even if it means a higher risk of convicting the wrong person.
This seems more like orientalism than an actual thing. The US is set up that way because it values capitalists above all else as a capitalist country, and this system puts them above the law.
Neat trick the tankies hate: the West is perfect if you just say that the biggest counterexample is irrelevant!
There’s definitely an algorithm that decides if any arbitrary algorithm will halt or not (unless you feed its own source code back into itself, but we’ll put that aside for now).
I’m explaining the cultural difference, not judging one as better or worse. America is more individualist and China is more collectivist.
How do you know information is going to China?
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You guessed it
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I’d much prefer handing my data to China than any 5-Eyes country. Can’t wait for my first phone with Harmony Next OS.
Yes. US and the West are the cause of our need to defend our selves digitally. Besides, even Chinese Corps are better, as they can’t utilize much information about you.
Why even a phone then? I’m not being facetious here it’s actually a follow up on lemmy.ml/post/42255169/23589434 namely what do you actually need a phone for?
Maybe you are used to it and it’s convenient for a lot of things you do. But do you actually need one, especially knowing that it’s a legitimate threat to you?
How about no phone but a small laptop or tablet with SIM as USB dongle?
Your huawei device will stick out like a sore thumb to networks, giving another vector to track you by.
Your huawei device may be subject to cutoff due to factors completely outside your control, impacting your ability to use it.
Consider getting a normal person phone and locking it down as much as you can then not using it when you need privacy. A shadow cast by nothing gives away the most well camouflaged animal.
This was absolutely my thinking in the couple/few years I had Xiaomi and Oppo hardware. CCP doesn’t know or care who I am.
Of course, no one spying on me is even better, so when I found out about Graphene I dumped my Find N5 at a pretty staggering loss to jump to that. Super anxious for them to start supporting non-Google hardware (last estimate I saw was late 2026/early 2027.)