Cities Panic Over Having to Release Mass Surveillance Recordings
(www.nakedcapitalism.com)
from technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com to privacy@lemmy.ml on 15 Nov 20:54
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/57691068
from technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com to privacy@lemmy.ml on 15 Nov 20:54
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/57691068
This gets us to the central problem of today’s surveillance state. No one running the cameras wants to be observed. One reason that city officials object to releasing Flock data, for example, must that they themselves are among the recorded. The cameras are on them too; they too can be tracked. Everything means everything for these everywhere cameras.
threaded - newest
“You mean we have to let the public use the services they’re paying for? Wtf!”
I worry we give too much attention to one company over several that are problematic. Not that the attention is invalid, more that we need to keep every invasive technology in each other's awareness.
It’s at least setting legal precedent which makes it easier to fight against these.
i don’t really believe in those anymore.
That’s a very Soviet shrug
thanks 🥦
common law “precedent” is just a bastardization of roman law meant to allow for some inbred english aristocrats to maintain their grip on power.
civil law is objectively superior in everyway that matters
My friend and I look for these occasionally. They’re often deployed with default passwords and never updated. Many seem to be set up to case businesses and houses and appear to be obscured from view. It’s super great /s
Any clever “google Dork” ways in finding these “flock” devices through eg Shodan?
i think theres a website for finding and reporting them.
banishbigbrother.com/flock-camera-map/
there it is.
There’s also deflock.me
Deflockme
deflock.me
And for anyone reading this, please contribute to the map when you find a camera irl that’s not included
What’s the default password? And how do you connect to it?
“This is sensitive data that could do a lot of damage if it fell into the wrong hands”, said the people paying a for-profit company to collect the data
said the owners of the bad hands 😂
“Give me the man and I will find the crime.”
NY city is the most camera surveillance place on earth. Didn’t make it much safer.
Is it NYC now? I remember it being London a while back, but considering the money, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was NYC now.
Yeah I remember UK was way ahead of the game on this and it was a big topic in the 2000s but maybe they got overtaken.
Would’ve expected Singapore to be up there
This. Citation needed
That’s how it is done.
If it is a public camera, it has to be a public record.
And if not, then anyone having access to the feed, has to have their whole life (both work and personal) be available as a public record.
If not, then you now have cases where most people can’t afford to defend themselves from malicious cop allegations.
To prevent this, anyone arrested, pre-trial has to have access to all searches done by cops, related to the allegation and ability to pull-up 100% of their own footage anytime near the event in question.
If any part of the footage is deleted, due to “technical issues” like, “the footage was deleted” or “some of the cameras were not working”, then the arrest is illegal and the police department is responsible for compensation.
I’m not from the US, but it would seem to me that public cameras should only be accessible for legitimate purposes.
Police should need to request footage, but similarly, you shouldn’t be able to just request any footage willy nilly, because of stalking.
Seems that it should be tightly regulated and require multiple people to gain access, and be documented who was given access.
Overall your comment seems like a great suggestion to me. If footage “goes missing”, they had better have way more evidence to back up their charges.
This also boils down to who is in control of the data.
Whoever gets to approve the data requests, needs to be answerable to those whose footage is being recorded.
If footage is asked for, then such a request needs to be logged publicly, with the requester’s identifiable information and stored as a permanent record, regardless of approval.
If any legislation is to be made regarding this, it is important to keep in mind that incomplete footage can be more harmful and will be misused.
Then comes the point where cops don’t really care about correctly solving a case and are happy with propping any random citizen as a criminal. And considering how easily they can get away with harassment even after being exposed, it honestly doesn’t make sense to me at all that they be given absolutely any extra privileges.
From my standpoint, if I can’t use a local police camera to get informed on who cut the brake-cable of my bicycle, then there might as well be no police camera.
Everytime I have personally seen the police go out of their way to do something, they never had any legitimate purposes.
I completely agree, well put
In reality it’s supposed to be even more strict. They’re trying to get around this by having a private company own the cameras. If the government owned the cameras, they would need to get a warrant with a sufficiently narrow target from a judge before initiating electronic surveillance to track the targets’ location.
If something is really going on which justifies it, getting a warrant is trivial and probable cause is a low bar.
Something like 90% of houses in this area have some kind of camera on it. I hate being filmed by these shitheads 24/7.
Yup. 1 day I just counted all the cameras on my way to get breakfast it was 57. And I’m sure I’ve missed many.
I’m one of those. Honestly it’s great to have. Not sure about situations where a house is closer to the road, but mine doesn’t record people on the sidewalk. You have to walk halfway up my driveway or more before it picks up on something to record. Helps me keep an eye on the stray cats that have a heated home on my porch, though.
You’re part of the problem. Get rid of it.
No thank you, it’s very useful and not shared. I have the right to video my own property.
Best option is to recommend people self host their camera feeds. People aren’t going to give cameras up, myself included, but keeping it all out of the ring/nest/netvue or any other cloud system is the way to go.
People can record in public, and that includes the area around their houses. Having 100s of thousands or millions of cameras sharing feeds with law enforcement for warrantless surveillance or corporate data hounds for more people tracking is the issue.
Yes. I would have no issue with all my neighbors having local systems like I’m switching to. But putting a cloud camera out on the sidewalk, where it’s not pointing at your entrance, but just filming passersby (my new neighbor)… eek. I am thinking of leaving him a note, just politely asking why he feels the need to record me walking my dog every day. At least put up a privacy notice we can all read and sign before crossing the public easement that people are totally allowed to walk. Let me know how me and my dog’s facial structures are going to be used to train mysterious backroom Planitir AIs. Like good neighbors do.
Don’t take it personally. You think your neighbor wants to record you and your dog specifically? I mean, it’s possible, but it’s likely they just want to be able to see who comes to their door, or have a general idea of what’s going on around their house. I have my locally hosted reolink doorbell set to trigger on zones if things enter my driveway or approach my door, because that’s what I care about. I get a bunch of crap with kids playing in the street running onto my property, people’s dogs straying off the sidewalk, and the occasional vehicle turning around. But I also figured out what kids were doing dong dashing, and have record of what deliveries were suplexed WWE style onto my doormat so I can more easily handle stuff damaged in shipping.
If you hear some crazy shit outside you probably get up and look out the window, don’t you? Well, a camera means you can go back and see what happened all the time. It’s a no brainer why people want them now that they’re cheap and accessible.
Most people don’t have any idea how bad cloud cameras are for overall society, and they’ll probably roll their eyes and think you’re crazy if you try to dive into that conversation with them out the gate.
They’re legally within their rights to do what they’re doing, so you can dislike it all you want but there’s not much you can do about it without some pretty diplomatic conversations. And a passive aggressive note left about them watching you and your dog isn’t going to help your case, at ALL. First you’ll have to become friends with them so they trust you, then find a way to educate them and change their minds.
I don’t think they’re disputing any of that if it’s hosted locally (including safely remote accessed by you). i think they’re talking about it being fed to the cloud & commoditised, which is a valid concern imo.
ofc neighbour does not want to record them, personally, but obviously they personally are negatively affected, against their will.
don’t forget that people aren’t leaving the house for the chance to be a public actor.
And why would I? My cameras record to my sever and nobody sees the cast majority of the footage.
It’s everywhere, I take public transit and there’s always some dummy filming his girlfriend or tourists staring in wonder at a train coming out of a tunnel and filming that too. I try to move away as quickly as possible. Now even at the public library entrance there is a camera. Guess I can’t go naked anymore!
Unless America is way different most of those cameras are standalone systems.
I was having catalytic converters stolen, and packages stolen, and even bridge toll trackers stolen. Then I added a bunch of lights and cameras. Now it doesn’t happen anymore. What am I supposed to do?
.
Replace the cameras with dummy cameras, because like you said “It doesn’t happen anymore.”
And who cares. My cameras record do you know who sees 99% of it nobody. It just gets recorded over.
I have an internal conflict with this and I don’t know where my line is. 100% police should have to get a warrant to use this shit. Fuck any company who want to use this for Ai and tracking shit so they can sell me more shit or the private company handing over the info over to law enforcement in a weird way to get around warrant requirments, or any other fucking weird shit.
But I also think you have no expectations of privacy in public. If you go outside and touch grass or whatever you can’t demand or stop others from doing their own thing and if that happens to be filming in a public space, well tough shit guess you go somewhere else. I kinda like the idea of cameras everywhere accessible to the public for the public good, I like pulling up traffic cameras and others local places cameras to see if cool things are going on.
So I’m conflicted, cameras everywhere can be cool and make things better for society as a whole but can very easily be used for evil things, maybe it’s better to just say fuck any good and it’s not worth the risk.
Also I have cameras at my house but I have them on a dedicated server( no ring bullshit). I was broken into and the experience convinced me to get them. Knowing when someone is on my property before they even get close to the house to ring the doorbell or other things is nice.
Also this just drops it’s rather cool. youtu.be/uB0gr7Fh6lY
I have the same feelings. I’m leaning towards preferring no cameras though. Data is cheap to store and never* gets deleted. Bad actors can comb through that information after the fact and use it for whatever purposes they want, even if it was initially taken/given with good intentions. Walking by a Ring camera now gets a mandatory consent-free facial scanning attempt. These cameras were not initially sold with this being a feature set. Who knows what bullshit they will be used for down the line
Not having a right to privacy doesn’t mean we should record everyone’s every move if they aren’t locked in their windowless basement. Which they would have to be since its legally OK to have cameras pointing at your neighbors bedroom window or backyard, or to fly a recording drone over their house.
Additionally I think we should have a right to privacy in public. Why does your right to have your own surveillance fiefdom in your building extend to the street where I’m just trying to go for a jog? It interferes with my peace of mind, and it makes neighbors appear more like police than people I should be able to rely on.
I’m also exceptionally skeptical cameras have any impact on crime. I know police rarely investigate or solve property crime, and unless they prevent the crime from happening outright (doubt), or the camera owner has a full time live human monitoring to respond to an immediate action (businesses), it serves no purpose but to give the owner a false sense of security and to peep on your neighbors.
Getting broken into can be a very traumatic and violating experience, and in a better world we would try to help both the person who is driven to robbery and the person who’s space was violated. In the one we live in, people slap cameras and floodlights everywhere, mental health care is nonexistent, and we punish such that the cycle of poverty and crime continues. Thus nothing is solved and the world gets worse.
Police cameras and municipal cameras are even worse in these ways, now it isn’t the guy next door, its the state and all the money and power it holds doing a peep into your bedroom and a follow down the street. They don’t trust you, they don’t want you here, and you had better watch yourself. That message isn’t for everyone of course, but if you’re already marginalized in a community, it sure reads like the message is for you.
If we do install cameras, like red light cameras or speed cameras which have proven to do something, we need to be extraordinarily careful about where we place them and how we use them. And they should only be there until the underlying problem is solved, not placed as a solution themselves.
Everything you said except for the last paragraph. We did fine for close to a century without traffic cams when it was up to a cop to catch a violator in the act. now it’s surveillance cameras and A.I. that’s automated the task and I consider akin to the police cheating at their jobs, yet somehow we still justify their ever-increasing budgets. -How does that not end up as a totalitarian police-state?
This is why I am conflicted. I don’t know where the line should be. I don’t know if anyone does. But like many things in life it is a balancing act with pro’s and con’s on either side.
I know very well that cameras offent don’t do much if anything. The place I work has had cars broken into the cop’s looked at the video of it happening and them going yup it happened don’t know who it is so can’t really do shit.
I mainly look at my cameras as a notification system. Like I said I know what’s happening on my property as it happens rather than after the fact. I also practice the 2nd amendment, now. ( a liberal with a gun what will happen next)
I’m guessing your in the US but if not ignore. The first amendment gives the right to record in public for news, everyone has the right to record and disseminate that info for the public. Would it be any different than someone with a photographic memory writing or drawing everything and disseminating that info to the public as news? The 4th amendment gives the right to be secured in your persons and things but if display it for me to see its not my duty to turn away, its yours to hide it. If you willing give the cops your info its your falt not theirs for violation of your 4th amendment right.
While uncomfortable, annoying and leads to people living in the basement with tinfoil over their windows, I would rather have the right to stand outside ice facilities, court houses, and public official houses on a public sidewalk, with a camera, protesting. Than deny any citizens a camera because someone was uncomfortable they where being filmed. Privacy in public isn’t a right but filming in public is. ( so we can hold our government accountable for the things they do.)
Edit. I trust random Joe Blow with a camera more than any state.
You do not have privacy in public how stupid are you? If your jogging on the street people can see you Wich means you are not private. Are people supposed to look away from you.
I like this down vote ratios. I wonder why? Just remember the same right that gives companies to record you in public is the same right that let’s you record public officials in the course if their duties. All those ice officers abducting people. Fuck ICE.
afaik public officials are usually a different legal category that limit them in their freedoms. maybe it’s an EU thing though, but I think recording their actions is explicitly allowed
I am from the US. Don’t know about anywhere else. AFAIK there is no law granting exemption to public officials. And any law that trys to restrict filming or dissemination of public information gets shot down because of the first amendment of the US constitution. That is a special law.
yes I do. we are not going outside the house to become some kind of an actor. we also cannot just “go away”, avoid some places because either that’s where we live, where we work, or where we need to pass to travel between these places. but I guess it is easy to tell the “problematic” people to just go way.
“you should have no expectations of privacy in public because I want to watch if something cool happens on a traffic camera”
maybe go play sims if you want to behave like some god, watching peoples lives who did not consent to it, but you could also just watch some fucked up reality show on TV
maybe it was a bit harsh, sorry for that, but I don’t know how to get the point across with better words.
No you don’t have privacy in public why would you think that? It is literally the opposite of private your in public and gasp other people can look at you. I know shock and horror.
because in normal circumstances what happens does not get recorded. I don’t care about people who look at me. their ability to do that does not cause anything bad. their vision and hearing does not end up in some kind of database that can be used for automated analysis
Sorry for long post I get not if you don’t read it. Have a blessed day anyways.
Philosophy would tell us we are all actors and are wearing masks to hide who we really are. This is a joke to lighten the mood, wouldn’t want to fall victim to Poe’s law.
First I am from the United States. If your from some where else I don’t know their laws sorry. Also I’m not a lawyer. I am just a hobbyist that likes public information. Shout out to DEFCON. Hell yeah.
Yes, the first amendment of the constitution gives Anyone/everyone the right to record in PUBLIC. If this is not the case than please site law? This has been proven many times in Court. It is also what gives police the plain view doctrine. You are afforded the same right to film bad cops doing fucked up stuff and things ( fuck yeah Otto( youtube.com/@ottothewatchdog ).If a cop can see it in public they can act upon it with no need for a warrant. It is up to you to hide your drugs or identity or what ever from plain view in public. It is not my duty to turn my back. Freedom is scary deal with it. Shout out to the civil rights lawyer. youtube.com/@thecivilrightslawyer
You chastises me for telling you are free to go somewhere else yet in the next sentence wish to restrict my rights and my hobby in a public space because you don’t wish to be recorded. If I was in a public park recording the trees or birds or the sick looking car in the parking lot, I should have the right to do so and not be hindered by you because you don’t want me to. Because you walked into a public park. I don’t wish to restricte you in any way. You are welcome to stand by me as I record the birds. But if you don’t like it you are free to walk away and go to another park. You wish to stop me altogether because now I’m the “problematic person”. How would you deal with this guy in your park? Shout out to Jeff Gray! youtu.be/UOTNJQdNRMo
I would much rather have the right (and balls) to do what this guy does to keep our government in check. Than to be denied the right to film in public because you or anyones feeling about privacy. Shout out to LIA. youtu.be/Wb_9J4Rs18E
You are also not as private as you think you are. Well maybe you are. I don’t know what steps you put into place to keep yourself private, but your problem to hide it not mine to turn my back. I can go to the city and pull information about any property/land , taxes, leans, fines, restrictions, history of ownership… If you own a car I can write down the license plate number and go pull records about the car. If your a public employee I can FOIA you salary and discipline record. If you stepped into a government building that had cameras I can FOIA the recording. If you have a business i can pull the license information. Your phone number might be listed on a white pages website. You can take steps to hide this info but you have to do it not me. You may not be as private as you think you are. Freedom is scary deal with it.
We all use public available information everyday ( like it or not )and its not all bad. Some of it can be of great use and make life better for everyone.
Have you used google street view. Its amazing, I’m poor at directions and being able to see where I’m going before I get there is great. I hate that Google hold this information but ecstatic that they make it public. Did Google ask for your permission before it drove by where you live? ( I think only Germany requires permission before google does this.)
Most States ( haven’t been to every states site) have a Department of transit website. That has cameras you can pull up to look at traffic and road conditions. Google uses this public information to help you and everyone else for their morning commute or whatever, same with your local news. I use it to look at road conditions so I don’t have to rely on Google or my local news. Public information is amazing.
Did you know NOAA ( www.noaa.gov )and NWS (www.weather.gov ) make their information public and if you have looked at the weather forcast they have probably got some if not all their info from them. Also you yourself can download their images directly from the satellites they have.
youtu.be/cjClTnZ4Xh4 Public info is so fucking cool. No matter what anyone says.
Did you know you can view and monitor the most of the world’s shipping traffic? globalfishingwatch.org/map Public information is how we get cool stories like this. youtu.be/2tuS1LLOcsI
The same goes for air traffic. This is how we know
This is how I get privacy in public places:
<img alt="" src="https://programming.dev/pictrs/image/5ea7e9fe-0783-4687-87bb-d345acff5fce.png">
I think this is a better solution. ^.^
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/17e48f72-9fe1-4ebd-bac6-f8b9d4733df3.jpeg">
There’s a saying where everyone’s rights only extend until it infringes upon that of others. here you can’t record me in public without my written permission, just as I can’t record you. Similarly:
you can take photos all you want until unconsenting people are not visible on it. you have the right to take photos. until it infringes upon the basic human right to privacy of others. here in Europe people have more rights than just being allowed to stay silent.
what? are you arguing that the weather has a right to privacy??
that’s just commercial entities… no private information is exposed there. for air traffic, right there are private jets, but like public servants, that should just be an additional category of people who have less rights because of their power to keep in check. also the way air traffic coordination works it cannot really be restricted.
if. but better they just not go up, but instead, down.
you know, somewhat me too. like the court room recordings. but I would only want it released if I agree to it, and otherwise there can still be written transcripts, redacted from private info at the few points where needed. but only if the person is not a public servant or otherwise wielding a lot of power (e.g. through highly outstanding wealth).
yeah but the way GPS works, it does not expose any information about the user. devices just receive precise timestamp and sat constellation info, GPS itself does not send any information.
it was not that long!
The article is about United States town and our laws here me being from the US. Maybe that is most of the heart of our difference of opinions. It sounds as though you are from Europe. And as I stated you are welcome to go elsewhere as you already are. If I happen to go over there I shall respect your laws and not record people. But me being here in the US I can very well record you in a public park I do not need your okay to do so, the news can also record you on the side of the street without your consent. As I’ve said I’m not sure I’m willing to give that right up. Insert typically American rally around the constitution and guns and fuck yeah team America bullshit.
But its also the beauty of having different countries or with in the US each states has its own laws, as I or you can move to suit our own societal needs and wants without infringement on others. Well hopefully. Its not perfect but its all we got. Or possibly Democratically change said laws. Good luck changing the US constitution. I really suggest watching some of the channels I posted.
I posted all that info ( you left off some of the public available info I listed) because it is public info and while I don’t know how making said cameras open to the public would make the world better. I’m sure someone smarter than me can find a way. Just like they found a way to make everything I listed great. Just like how the public makes Foss software great. If we make it, it should be public so the public can make sure it’s used for good not evil. It should not be held behind government closed doors. We shouldn’t be fearful of information. How long did they take to make GPS fully available to the public.
I shall respect your right to privacy where you are from and I shall try my best to stop American imperialism ( free Palestine, fuck Israel and Slava Ukraini) infringement on that right. But I do ask you to not to infringe on my rights here afforded to me by my laws. Guns, fuck yeah. Though I do ask if this Orange wana be King overstays his term limit and doesn’t get the fuck out come 2028 I hope you come help us overthrow his pedo ass.
Hope we can agree to disagree. With love stay safe out in this chaotic work. Edit world.
Sorry for double post but here are some more, I think their great, YouTube channels that give more opinion and point of view from an American point of view and why I think there should be no expectations of privacy in a public space.
youtube.com/@firstamendmentprotectionagency
youtube.com/@thearmedfisherman
youtube.com/@lacklustermedia
youtube.com/@dreadingcap
youtube.com/@thevillainscrime
youtube.com/@jamesfreeman1
youtube.com/@amagansettpress
youtube.com/@kultnews
There are many more. I do not wish to give this up because the person being filmed doesn’t like it. They should act better and be a better person.
It’s a sign of rot in our culture. People feel entitled to know everything about others around them. It’s the same mindset whether it’s trawling through security camera footage or stalking someone on social media or irl. Technology has accelerated the trend and reinvented voyeurism as a mainstream hobby
TWO groups of conversation from this:
Public cameras recording our private lives recorded MUST be fully regulated and accountable. Private cameras slightly more tricky. I take the view that self hosting options are the best option. We need more devices that just work for the lay person. RING (and similar) should be considered a shit-show for privacy rights.
That’s why I installed an analog camera DVR system in my home. It cheap, reliable, locally hosted, and best of all I’m the only one with access. (Not counting the Chinese government via the mandated backdoor in the DVR firmware) it’s great!
EDIT: formatting
I would never. Ever have a security camera for personal use that uses some kind of cloud-only server. If I need to use a cloud service for a backup that is one thing. But it will primarily be an internal offline recording. Wired setups are superior here.
If they panic, they better Release it.