The Perfect Private Messenger
from hereforawhile@lemmy.ml to privacy@lemmy.ml on 16 Oct 02:57
https://lemmy.ml/post/37598462
from hereforawhile@lemmy.ml to privacy@lemmy.ml on 16 Oct 02:57
https://lemmy.ml/post/37598462
What’s the closest thing we have to a perfect private messanger?
In my mind the perfect private messanger is both completely secure, and also completely anonymous.
All the mainstream messengers can pretty much ensure the contents of the message will not be revealed…but that is not good enough. I want to be able to deploy and establish a completely anonymous AND private channel of communication on a dime without having to jump through extreme operational security hoops.
Does it really exist?
threaded - newest
SimpleX is currently the best one possible.
All the security of signal without needing a phone number.
Everything can be through tor. Contact link can be formed with a one time use code that you DM someone privately.
Anything more advanced and you’re basically in internet dead drop territory. An encoded message on a pastebin through tor. Congratulations, you’ve entered pedophile/terrorist level security realm.
Simplex does check alot of those boxes… but smp traffic is easily identifiable unless your jumping through the major hoops of establishing a totally anonymous proxy.
Thats to bad being anonymous and secure puts you in that category. It shouldn’t!
Honestly, pedos & terrorists get the whole world cooperation on doxing them. So if they’re not using a tool or method then it’s not proof against nation states.
Why the need for complete anonymity though? Literally only pedos operate at that level so that nobody can squeal on the others if they are busted (they inevitably need to mess up a real kid because their CSAM isn’t good enough).
This kind of mindset is what make the privacy community seem like outcasts. Yes, pedophiles and other criminals would benefit from complete anonymity, but that does not mean we should draw the line at how anonymous someone gets to be because “only pedos operate at that level”.
Journalist and human rights activists are criminals in certain circumstances. Being a criminal doesn’t mean they are bad.
Journalists and activists can make good use of top security.
“Antifa” are terrorists in the usa now
Why not XMPP? Its anonymous, E2EE, etc.
I use XMPP and it’s good. SimpleX is even better at anonymising meta data afaik
Does it have Post Quantum Encryption? Only anonymous if used with TOR or VPNs.
https://briarproject.org/
At first I read ‘The Perfect Private Massager’
You want both, a completely anonymous AND completely private channel of communications? I mean, not to sound sarcastic, when you find one, please do share. There are no absolutes. For every technology, there exists or will soon exist, an equal, yet undoing technology. I have amended this to exclude most strong ciphers as pointed out by one of the Lemmies here.
Yeah. AFAIK there is no messenger that purposely delays your messages anywhere from 1 second to ,I don’t know, a month? To stop someone from correlating your time online with the time messages are sent. That would be insanity. But it does increase privacy and anonymity a bit
I may have taken the OP a bit too literal when he said ‘completely’. me skuzi
…SIMPLEX (the app)
SimpleX?
Tox would also be fantastic, but they need to improve their encryption and get it audited. Also, some nicer UIs in the various clients would be nice.
I think you don’t want to know the real answer. It sounds like you want a phone app, but what you really have to do is flush your phone down the toilet and use a totally different approach. Also, there is absolutely no way to avoid difficult opsec. The communications technology is irrelevant since the greatest vulnerability in any security system is the people who use it. Do you think the private messenger software will free sessions with your therapist from spying? Guess again.
As the saying used to go, you’re seeking a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.
Technically, you should keep your phone and run false, normie activities on it. Give it to someone else to use and move about while you’re actually operational so it remains actively pinging the world while you’re away from it. All while also using the real approach, but not within range of your phone, or any windows or apple hardware linked to you either.
Lot of people mentioning SimpleX but I can’t imagine trying to make someone go online at the same time as me to start sending each other messages without being annoyed. It also relies on funding from the British state IIRC.
On the other hand XMPP is a W3C internet standard, the server is super lightweight, plenty of tools and bridges work with it. Movim uses it, which is like an encrypted Mastodon where you can selectively make a post public but otherwise gates everything behind a login. Also you can send messages on the main phone network with the paid Cheogram service, but I realize that an unencrypted SMS relay is not a priority for everyone. I think it’s the bee’s knees.
Does xmpp have Post Quantum Encryption? Only anonymous if used with TOR or VPNs.
You don’t have to be online at the same time. To receive or send messages. Getting funding from governments would not disqualify a project. The founder of SimpleX is a right wing guy hating the labor government in the UK.
I mean to set up the chat in the first place you gotta both be online. I think OMEMO is good idc if its quantum safe ill check later. Good tonmention ty, but if the government wants me bad enough to use quantum shit they’re just gonna go thru my device itself. Yeah I know abt post processing it all after stashing it. The american govt is gonna collapse first anyways #whocare #theytouchedthemoney #theytouchedthemoneyanditgotquiet
Do you just keep your phone off or do you not use your IM clients there? Literally never had this issue with simplex, it deliveres notifications just fine to my phone.
Though I did manually have to give it notification perms on android. Annoying but very easy fix.
Look everyone I know smokes weed it’s really bad. More like a turn your brain on situation. You know how bad that is for your sleep architecture™ over a period of 4-5 years? It’s a wonder they can even remember what I said, but telling them to do something at a certain time? I’d be uncloseted as an authoritarian. The only way I even get people to use these apps is Appeal to Paranoia.
I rip through an ounce of dabs a month and can run a homelab and write software that way, I have no problem holding a 9-5. Your friends are just irresponsible, or more likely, just don’t give a fuck like 99% of people.
Me and my friends are all stoners, we use simplex fine. Not sure what your deal is.
Either way why do they need to do something at a certain time?
YOU CAN MESSAGE OFFLINE USERS ON SIMPLEX THEY WILL GET THE MESSAGE LATER, IF THEYRE ONLINE NOW THEY WILL GET A NOTIFICATION. IF THIS ISNT WORKING YOUR NOTIFICATION SETTINGS ARE FUCKED.
I’m sorry you and your friends can’t figure out how to use literally the first open source privacy a respecting messenger that I actually think I could hand to my grandmother…
Fucking act like it then and calm down, I was just saying to the other guy, the issue is having to be online in order to connect contacts. That is a serious issue outside of people you’re already tight with, think abt how flaky people are even in important situations.
Besides, what makes XMPP perfect to me is that the ecosystem is mature, it will be around forever, it has a service I can use to access Canadian and US cell networks while abroad. It has an encrypted facebook style social media site in rapid development that any XMPP acct can login to so they don’t need to make a new account, that by design NEVER HAS THOSE ASSHOLES ON IT
Hopefully Webxdc on XMPP takes off more it’s currently only on Cheogram Android app and Delta Chat droid/pc. You can make collaborative editors and games n stuff if I guess you want encrypted tuxcart (someday)
Simplex works async. You might be thinking of briar
I don’t understand how every person responding to me has missed that I said “start chatting” not “continue chatting” but I will be idiot-proofing my lemmy comments from here on out, it’s exhausting
Such a high horse for such a tiny person.
So… You know… Maybe get off the horse? It’s not that everyone around you is an idiot is that you failed to communicate… Or you are an idiot
Can’t believe nobody brought up i2p.
Messages sent through i2p in theory would be secure and anonymous. With an envelope anology, no way to tell if an envelope stops at a particular house or gets forwarded on, and also they can only see bags of envelopes and not a specific envelope.
Are there any cool i2p sites or apps? Since it doesn’t have exit nodes I never found a reason to use it.
I2p has a BitTorrent system. They’d have to block i2p completely to stop it. It will probably be the only way to torrent once VPN bans/liability get brought up.
Can you hook me up? I don’t know how to find those torrents/indexers/trackers
Briar, SimpleX, I2Pchat on desktop, maybe LXMF/Reticulum/Sideband over I2P if you want to get techy.
Cwtch is in the same space
Your own xmpp server
How is that anonymous?
Because no one will ever send you a message
~/s it was a joke. Hold you horses xmpp fans. Im not attacking anyone here~
I host one but the more I analyze privacy implications the worse it looks.
Only you and maybe 10 other people will connect to that server’s IP, port 5222. This makes it very easy to track your group by telco operators and people who have access to their logs.
Even if you use a VPN or Tor at all times, most of your other users likely don’t.
And the domain is registered to someone’s name too, although I know this can be worked around.
Session, Signal, Matrix, and more.
Signal is far from perfect but its good enough for me.
Love signal but it’s NOT anonymous
Edit: signal. Not simpkex
AFAIK simplex is the closest we have to perfect privacy.
+1 for simplex. I don’t use tor, but if you want the best of the best, use it
This is probably the most anonymous way to text.
I would still like to understand why Jami is never mentioned in these posts. I’m not aware of any technical or security objections, and the less I hear about Jami, the more concerned I become about using it.
You can’t have big groups in Jami, it’s limited to a small number of participants (can’t remember how many).
Yeah. SimpleX has a similar problem, because it’s basically creating a bunch of 1:1 connections between everyone to preserve anonymity - IIRC (I freely admit I could be misremembering this). As I understood, it’s a decent limit, though - more than the 7-12 friend/family group you’d reasonably trust in a chat group.
I did not consider this a blocker - who’s using encrypted chat for large groups? Large group chats are fundamentally insecure; is the use case about anonymity, not encryption?
Okay that’s cool but even software projects like SimpleX need group chats for the software’s community to ask questions and such, where should they be hosted? Slack?
Sure, encryption may not be important for large groups but it can happen that it may be needed. If I were to make a group with my coworkers, I’d want that to be E2EE. On top of that, even without E2EE, you need good UX to host discussion groups for various topics, and Jami is simply not there yet.
You need to define extreme operational security hoops.
For me, meeting a human in person and scanning a qr code or relying on an out of band scheme to do the same is a huge hoop.
No. If you don’t jump through those hoops you give up the completeness of your anonymity, privacy or security.
If you’re uninterested in simply recognizing that fact, consider that the “push button, get privacy” level development is being worked on in reverse by every intelligence agency, data broker, state and municipality with astronomical funding levels.
jami
How does Jami handle offline messages? From understanding its p2p, so both ppl have to be online right?
from my knowladge it stores the message on the senders device until the other person js online then sends it
Matrix gets a lot of flak from people for their constant protocol changes, de-facto centralization around matrix.org and Element etc… but I’m very happy with Matrix as an open, federated, encrypted and private messenger and I hope it gets more adoption.
Matrix is convenient, not perfect security in any way.