from heygooberman@lemmy.today to degoogle@lemmy.ml on 05 Feb 2024 21:27
https://lemmy.today/post/6126694
About a week ago, I finally made the decision to flash GrapheneOS on my Pixel 6. I’ve been thinking about moving to GrapheneOS for months but was afraid to do so because of missing functionalities or app incompatibility that would result in my Pixel 6 becoming unusable. Even though I could just re-flash stock Android should I encounter those issues, I didn’t want to bother.
However, last week, I decided to set aside my fears and made the move to GrapheneOS. Whatever fears or concerns I had about missing functionalities or app incompatibilities were completely unfounded. Flashing of GrapheneOS was really easy, thanks to the instructions they provided on their website. The sandboxed Google Play environment still allowed me to download the key apps I needed, whether it be the mobile game that I’m currently playing or a smart home app (e.g. Ring) or a banking app (e.g. Chase). They all worked as expected, though my banking apps required me to turn on Exploit Protection Compatibility Mode, something that was explained to me in one of the Graphene Discussion Boards. Android Auto was another app that I needed for driving, and thanks to the latest update that was made by the GrapheneOS makers, I had no issues in setting up Android Auto to work with my car. That was a huge relief for me!
That being said, there is one thing that is not working, but it’s not that important of a feature for me, and that is NFC. Prior to making the move, I did not use NFC that much for payments, although my car app did have a Remote Key function that relied on NFC. As far as I can tell, it looks like NFC is not usable in GrapheneOS. There’s probably a good security and/or privacy reason for this, but I do wish something could be implemented for it, as it can be quite convenient. Again, it’s not that important of a feature for me to have right now…more of a “nice to have” feature…but I wonder if the GrapheneOS developers are looking into this.
Anyways, it’s only been a week since I made the move. I’m sure more use cases will come up the more I use GrapheneOS, and instead of fear, I find myself excited at testing out more apps and functionalities on the OS. Traveling is one scenario I have not yet tried, but that’s because I’m not leaving town to go anywhere. That’s one set of scenarios that I look forward to trying out.
If anyone has any other advices or information they have about their experience with GrapheneOS, I would welcome it. And for those who are still undecided about moving to GrapheneOS, I hope this post relieves some of your anxieties or worries about making the transition.
#degoogle
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Odd, I have used NFC before on lineage OS, but not for payments, obviously.
This only affects payments using nfc as graphene os certificate would not match Googles.
I have no problem using NFC with GrapheneOS on a Pixel 4A.
What’s your use case for NFC on your Pixel 4A?
I just used it to try some NFC-proof wallets, scanning my bank card with and without the wallet. I don’t use it everyday.
Wait what?
I’ve been using it pretty routinely on lineage.
I think NFC is fine, it’s the proprietary parts of Google Pay that GrapheneOS can’t do
NFC for security related things relies on certificates that belong to Google. GrapheneOS / LineageOS etc could make their own and put forward to the banks/credit card companies/car companies etc but the likelihood that they’d get them signed and approved is basically nil.
Pretty much the same core issue that means you can’t run streaming services at 4K outside mainstream devices like Chromecast or Nvidia Shield etc. You can’t make it work on a HTPC or a cheap Android TV stick from AliExpress, because it lacks the certificates to authenticate to Netflix etc. As well as HDCP and other DRM which is needed.
My only problem with GrapheneOS is when I record the screen on Vanadium browser it doesn’t capture the audio
I’d like to see some features as:
Block Screenshot whole system
True Black Mode to make the most of the OLED screen
Extreme Power Saving
Block recharging when it reaches 80% to preserve battery health
I don’t know if is a good option because I need to use adb to write some settings this could break the security model of the system but thanks for your recommendation
my Pixel 6 doesn’t stop charge when reaches 80% and there is not an option to enable this feature
Nobody said it would.
The one thing I’ve had issues with has been sending files to other devices over Bluetooth, but receiving hasn’t been a problem. Has anyone else had this issue & been able to fix it?
I've been really considering switching to grapheneOs, But I'm a therapist and we have to use Google voice for our office numbers. Does Google voice still ring through if it's in a sandboxed environment?
Yes, it works for me
It does, you have nothing to worry about.
Brand new the 6a is just over $400. That seems pretty reasonable to me for a modern smartphone.
You could probably get a used one for less.
DivestOS is probably the best option for you then.
If you watch for a sale you can get a brand new one for less than 400. They seem to last well, but I’ve never had any phone last 5 years.
Just get an older Pixel. I got a 4a 5g that I bought a couple years ago. Still works fine and goes for less than 200 EUR these days.
Just be aware of the supported devices for GrapheneOS, as the older Pixels may not receive updates.
Paid $250 for a refurbished Pixel 7 on Amazon. Other than coming in a generic box and having a generic charging brick and cable, from the phone itself you’d never know it was a refurb.
I’ve never spent less for what I’ve gotten than with pixels. Paid $350 for a pixel 4a that lasted me 3.5 years and I paid less than 400 for a 7a. Just get last year’s model. To be clear the hardware still worked after 3.5 years but I decided to not continue after the security updates stopped
Purchase an A series model from last year. Run Graphene for 3 years. Then switch to Calyx for the next 2 years, assuming your battery lasts (or you fix it with an iFixit).
You don’t even need to switch after the initial support period ends, in my experience they’ve kept supporting older pixels for longer than they promised
That’s great then
Copy from another comment I made about “extended support”, I think it means they are still supporting it but they might stop at any point. From their actual doc:
Their resell value is ass, but that’s good for consumers. My brother bought a Pixel 5 for $165 recently off of swappa.com
I'm in a similar place as the OP.
One question I have is about Vanadium. This is chrome based, right? Is it really the best/most secure browser? Aren't the better secured flavors of Firefox better (LibreWolf, Fennic, etc.)?
The GrapheneOS team has written extensively on why they advise against the use of Firefox in their Usage Guide.
I don’t really feel like they explained much in terms of why just a lot of detail around what they believe. The tldr seems to be that Firefox isn’t truly secure but Google’s work is.
All the talk about Tor also seemed to go back and forth between “this is the best and that’s why we use that approach” and “it’s not very good but will be eventually”.
Nothing they wrote was clear to me honestly. I do find it hard to believe that Firefox is inherently insecure and that the extensions many rely on for privacy reasons are all bullshit security theatre…
Sandboxing is crap on Firefox (specially on android) . Google is really fucking good at security since they are well a huge multinational behemot. They know security. Security =/ privacy. When you are using android you are using Chrome webview no matter what browser you are using. So just piling on stuff instead of replacing things won’t be a good security practice.
Also the Google parts are optional , you don’t need Googles stuff to use chromium. Just like vanadium does.
Regarding webviews – am I right in thinking that webviews are simply a frame within another app that acts as a web browser? I’ve been under the impression that since I disabled chrome on my android phone and that the upper right menu offers to open in FF, those are using FF. I guess I’m wrong?
Well you say the Google parts of chromium are optional, but that’s more just tracking and sign in stuff. Google is the major player in the chromium codebase, no? They have some fantastic engineers but it still sort of has the stink of Google on it, if nothing else due to the web standards supported which is steered by Google business decisions. That’s mainly why I don’t want to use it. I want other browsers to exist. That and mobile ff extensions are fantastic from a user perspective
I’m no expert but webview is used anytime remote content is loaded I believe. Certainly you can open links in FF but webview is always there , and not so obvious things always load that way. Webview is baked inte the OS itself. No matter how much you degoogle. Bromite had another webview based on chrome but that’s all the alternative that exist as far as I know.
Chromium is still Foss. Google might have a stink and definitely tries to influence on the Foss part. But when it comes to vanadium I have no question about that everything is under a magnifying glass.
As I wrote elsewhere , all projects have their place and I do use FF, just not on android. I would be really happy if FF on mobile would be able to compete but I don’t see that happening until we have full Linux phones (that actually does everything android does)
androidauthority.com/what-is-android-system-webvi…
I appreciate your response. However, upon reading that article, it seems the truth is somewhere between our two understandings. WebView is no longer baked into the OS:
What I said about an app displaying content using Firefox is also true in some cases. You can see in this screenshot of the article that Firefox is being used in the manner I described (and the selected text describes):
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/40d2c25a-730d-4c5d-a9fe-0cc6ce9077fc.png">
I have often noticed that “powered by Firefox” text, so I guess that’s where my assumption came from.
I don’t doubt at all that certain apps, specifically Google built ones, still require/use the google WebView, but that’s not every app. Boost for Lemmy for example, in my screenshot, uses the custom tab feature which can use Firefox. I am tempted to disable the Google WebView app just to see what happens… I am guessing Google-built apps like Gmail will crash. I wish “custom tabs” were adapted in a manner that Firefox could always be used, but I doubt Google would make that a thing.
At least they do have the custom tab feature, something apple would never do, maybe not even if the friggin EU forced them to. They seem to be weaseling out of some other EU regs, anyhow.
But back to GrapheneOS. Given that Google apps are sandboxed and almost discouraged in that OS, I’m still not sure I understand the specific guidance against Firefox.
Edit: yeah disabling the WebView app causes Gmail to crash horribly and even K9 mail, made by Mozilla, responds the same way. :'(
I just wrote a longer comment but it seemed to disappear. I did not find that writeup very easy to understand nor convincing because the underlying message is that Firefox is bullshit?
It was an ongoing debate on reddit that came up a couple times. I personally use both Mull and Vanadium. I just use noScript with Mull more for usability than anything else.
I’m not technically knowledgable enough to weigh in on the validity of the argument, I just posted it for those who were wondering why.
Here is a reddit discussion via libreddit where you can read a more at length discussion on it.
And another one.
So… Firefox is a scam and Google’s browser isn’t? I didn’t really understand that writeup
Tor Browser is based on Firefox/Gecko, and they advise against Chrome/Chromium because it is horrible. That should give you a clue about how garbage GrapheneOS and anything those people advise really is.
The reason why Firefox is not recommended by GrapheneOS is because its (sole) “lead developer” has a personal grudge against Mozilla developers. This personal sentiment did not exist before August 2019 for a mysterious reason. ╮(︶▽︶)╭ lists.torproject.org/pipermail/…/013995.html
If you have 1 problem (chrome) and you add another problem (Firefox ) how many problems do you have?
And I can’t get any reference to anyone calling Firefox a scam?
You beat me to it! I was gonna mention the same thing. However, I don’t think it may be that big of a deal if you use Firefox or some flavor of it. The one term I often hear about GrapheneOS and other AOSPs like it is “threat model”, and depending on that model, you may not necessarily be impacted if you decide to use something other than the stock browser.
That’s not to say the GrapheneOS developers are wrong in their Usage Guide. I’m sure they looked into this extensively, hence the usage guide.
I personally use both Mull and Vanadium depending on what I’m doing.
I use Mull with NoScript to just browse. If I need JS or need to log in (very very rare), I use Vanadium. This is the compromise I make.
Everything the Gos team does it’s from a Security perspective and nothing more. There is no issue with FF, they are simply stating that of you have extreme security concerns (threat model of avoiding NK nation state actors for example) you should use the browser they spent all this effort hardening and to work specifically with GOS
…and Chrome based browsers do nothing for that level of threat actors. Its dev hates Firefox due to a personal grudge against Tor/Mozilla devs. lists.torproject.org/pipermail/…/013995.html
You know Tor Browser is based on Firefox, and they specifically recommend against Chrome/Chronium? Use TailsOS and avoid foolishly recommending their stuff for “security” against state actors. They lie about buying $1M Cellebrite kits on YouTube.
i.imgur.com/woNxPhx.jpg
Rather that if you ever accidently clicked on anything you shouldn’t, you would probably be better off if you used vanadium and not Firefox.
I certainly don’t disagree, but I do believe the issues of FF are exaggerated. It’s a fav amongst the tech community (which includes infosec nerds) for a reason still, and is the baseline for the Tor project and even Mullvads wonderful browser, not to mention LibreWolf.
Don’t get me wrong I do use Firefox myself , just not on android. The reason for using FF in onion project is that FF allows proxy needed for Tor. The aim is only privacy , security as a by product. As such they need to take a lot of measures against fingerprinting and remove functionality that others have. So all the projects have their own justification. But using tor browser as intended for daily use would be a real pain.
Agreed on everything. There is a huge cross and or line between privacy and security, sometimes they overlap, sometimes they conflict.
It depends. I use GrapheneOS to avoid Google as much as possible, not to be the most secure thing in the world. I use Firefox with addons for a much less annoying browsing experience.
If you are using Firefox on android you are using Firefox AND Chrome. Webview is chrome whatever browser you use. So using Firefox double the attack surface and weakens security since Firefox is not properly sandboxed.
Sure. That’s fine. My point was that your goals matter to determine if something is good or not. My goals involve no ads, dark reader, and script blocking for better user experience.
Sorry answered on yours instead of op thread
Except, of course, that FireFox doesn't use webview.
If you open a link in an app you are using the webview , gecko is not a webview. As Firefox says: “Google does not allow a third party to implement the System WebView and the GeckoView API is not compatible with the WebView API in a very meaningful way unfortunately, so this is not possible.”
Ah, I thought you were implying that FireFox itself depends on Chrome for rendering.
I feel like I'm not exposed to vebview particularly often when using my phone though, maybe in part because I dislike it and tend to actively avoid it in my workflow.
The GrapheneOS devs largely prefer their chromium based browser. I however decided for me that a combination of the URLCheck and Mull apps fits my needs best.
Could you kindly explain why it meets your needs best?
Ok, I try. So URLcheck is just nice to review what you have clicked and maybe remove some tracking.
I prefer Mull because I have the impression I get better privacy. First, there is Adblock and other extensions which ( I think) I can’t use in Vanadium. And second, I use a feature to delete just any history/ cookie etc. on app close. I think this option is also not available.
Graphene is amazing! Switched from Calyx last week and couldn’t be happier. Scopes are the best thing ever. App “needs” to read contacts? Yeah, you can read the one fake contact that the scope allows you to.
Can you use the seedvault backup to restore on graphene? I run calyx and am happy but curious about graphene.
yes but I think they are planning on changing the backup method
Regarding seedvault, I tried to do a backup of my phone, once I got it setup, but it seems like backup function is not working very well. I tried external USB thumb drive and Internal Storage, but neither of those options resulted in a successful backup. I did some search on the GrapheneOS Discussion Board (thread), and it seems like the Seedvault version that is currently part of the build is out-of-date. They may push a newer version in the next update.
Yeah, the Scopes feature is really nice! I often wonder why some apps require reading every single contact or need access to every folder/directory in your phone. In my use case, there are a few apps that require access to storage or contacts, but thanks to Scopes, I can limit it to just a specific folder or a small group of contacts. Everything else is off limits, and I like that.
I swapped to it at the start of the year. I’ve been really enjoying it so far. I’m down to a single app which requires Google Play Services installed. As it’s only one app I’ve created a second profile specifically for it and only have Google services installed in that one. I’ve disallowed it running in the background too, so my phone is never running the services outside the brief times I need to use the app.
Losing contactless payments was a minor inconvenience, but I picked up one of the cases which can fit a couple of cards inside as an alternative.
Yeah I honestly don’t understand why people cling to the contactless payment as this thing they can’t possibly fathom losing. It’s moderately more convenient, sure, but you’re still pulling a thing out of your pocket and putting it up to the machine. It doesn’t seem like that big of a loss to me for all the benefits of being on graphene or lineage.
Personally my phone is my backup wallet though contactless payments. I may forget to bring my wallet with me, but never my phone .
I was 2500 miles from home and lost my wallet. I don’t use Google pay often at all, but it was a life saver that day. Even if I don’t use it, it’s nice to have a an option
You had me almost convinced to try this on mine up until the NFC. I use contactless payments on mine at 90% of the places I shop, so that is a deal breaker for me.
NFC works fine on GOS, however, Google does not consider it a approved os so itb failure attestation, any form of NFC payment will not work because of this. It’s not because of GOS or hardware, it’s literally Google being cunts.
Just to be clear NFC works fine, you can use Yubikeys all day, and certain other NFC style tokens like a train ticket or what have you do work as well.
“Any form of NFC payment will not work” means not only Google Pay, but banking apps with their own NFC implementation neither?
Depending if they rely on the G Play Integrity API or SafetyNet Attestation API grapheneos.org/…/attestation-compatibility-guide There’s a secure way to attest it, but if i understand it, it require the app devs to explicitly add support of grapheneOS via hardware attestation API
Yes this 💯 and as well all know the chances of a dev explicitly adding GOS support are slim to none
Can you not just get one of those wallet-cases and put your contactless card in the same place as your phone?
I already have a really nice wallet and phone case. Things are hard enough as it is to fit into my pockets. I personally have no problems with my Pixel 6 and I really don’t want to create them without a really good reason.
Having the digital wallet has saved me multiple times in the past with fraudulent payments and lost/damaged cards. When you are waiting for your new card in the mail, the digital payment system that is linked with your bank/CC is still able to be used in the meantime. That means I can go get groceries and gas. I have had it take over a week to get a new card. If I am traveling/out of town, then it is even a bigger mess.
I understand that Google is evil, but there are some things that I am ok with them tracking, such as my location with Google Maps Timeline. As long as I can mostly block out the advertising on my phone with AdGuard, that will just have to be enough at this time.
Those sound like some very specific edge cases. Of course it’s fine for you to do whatever you want, it’s all a trade-off of what you lose vs what you gain. “Threat model” and all that.
NFC works, you just cannot use it for Google Pay.
Why would you use Google Pay if you care about privacy? It’s not like credit cards have been decommissioned.
Oh, I don’t use Google Pay with NFC. Prior to flashing GOS on my Pixel 6, the only time I used NFC was to unlock my car when I didn’t have the physical key fob with me. That was done through my car manufacturer’s mobile app (BMW). However, when I went to set up the digital key after flashing GOS, the app told me that it couldn’t set up the digital key, because I was using an unsupported version of Android.
Sorry, I replied to you but was reading another comment.
The fault is not of GrapheneOS, but of reliance on Google Play Services
That’s alright!
Yeah, I think there’s another comment on this post that mentioned the same thing.
I replied elsewhere to questions but wanted to share my two cents.
I’ve been nothing but impressed with GOS, from it’s installer to it’s everyday use, and really neat security quirks.
However, I’ve been in non stop mental anguish from the Google pixel 7 series hardware. I was told this wasn’t really as much as an issue with pre-6 series pixels but Jesus tap dancing Christ I have the 7 series.
Fingerprint sensor flat out does not work. It’s not a true hardware based like old versions, it’s off the main screen. Not being dramatic, I see about a 99/100 failure rate. I learned it works better in humid climates. So if you’re in a dry climate you’re SOL. But even in humidity it’s still shitty. To get around this, I have to blow on my screen with hot air before being able to use it. Yes, I’ve done every trick in the book, including reenrolling the same finger, etc.
I cannot STAND the volume keys on the same side as the lock botton. Maybe this is just preference.
I’ve encountered other annoying shit that is either AOSP based or directly from GOS, just like horrible horrible horrible password manager integration, such as autofill not working in 50 percent of all forms.
Issues with the lock screen being garbage. Ie whatever behavior it has to work for unlock does not work well. Sometimes I have to swipe up 10 plus times to get to the PIN screen.
There are many features removed that were argued as security concerns which I do understand but drive me nuts. Native keyboard lacks tons of features one such is swipe/Swype. Haven’t been able to use speech to text either.
Copy and paste is painful.
Autofill for MFA Stuff doesn’t work.
There is no face id system period, I believe stock pixel 7 series does include this support and it actually works.
I could go honestly go on and on. I wish I could go back to the ease of use of an iphone but the peace of mind of security is worth the pain to me.
I will finish by saying that out of all the Google free custom ROMs for Android, GOS has the absolute best google services implementation with it’s sandboxing feature. This still does not include support for NFC tap payments. This isn’t GOS fault though
Can’t answer on the hardware since I don’t have the 7 , but keyboards are plenty around . I use gboard and remove network permissions ( jay GOS) why force a specific one on people? Just use the one you want. Passwords keepassDX , MFA aegis. Copy paste I havent thought about it guess what you compare to.
I have tried several keyboards actually. Gboard is the least shitty, and yes I do have network perms enabled :p
I haven’t been able to get the Chamberlin Myq app working which is why I’ll probably switch back to the stock image. It won’t let me login and keeps giving a 401.122 error even after disabling all of the security settings for that specific app.
I had the same problem after flashing GOS onto my device, but my wife who uses an iPhone also had that problem. I don’t recall how she eventually logged in though, but when I searched online about the 401.122 error message, I got answers that suggest it could be a problem on MyQ’s end.
I saw that as well but my wife on stock android didn’t have any issues and it’s also been over a month since the first time I tried.
Tbf, that could just be the MyQ app. I recently moved into a house that had that system installed in the garage and I spent hours trying to get the damn thing to work. The app and the system are hot garbage.
Ended up ditching it for a Meross garage opener which is much more consistent.
I’ve been using GrapheneOS for a couple years now, both with and without the Google compatability apps. I vastly prefer without, but I’m lucky in that my credit union’s app will function without Google.
Аnd all your privacy ends when you insert a SIM card into your phone. Not sarcasm, but kind of…
👍